Note values in Schumann

[John Ruggero]

Thanks, Ben. Is this actually correctable through a settings change? The slurs in the left hand of 20-22 are particularly awkward that way.

On the other hand, I am not so sure that the ties in 17 and 28 should pass through the stems despite the fact that that is what the B&H engravers did. Gould only does this when unavoidable, and that has always been my impression.

[benwiggy]

I haven't adjusted the slurs in 20-22 from Dorico's (my) settings, except for the hanging end on the new system in 23, which was awful.

Screenshot 9.png (20.68 KiB) Viewed 4670 times

I don't think there's a global option to adjust the start position of the cross-staff ties, without affecting all others. Some manual work is still necessary.

I adjusted the ties at 17 and 28 to match the B&H engraving, because I thought the longer tie looked better, even if it did cross the stem.

Screenshot 10.png (17.11 KiB) Viewed 4670 times

[John Ruggero]

I adjusted the ties at 17 and 28 to match the B&H engraving, because I thought the longer tie looked better, even if it did cross the stem.

I too would do that in a very cramped situation. However in this case, I think I would have increased the space between the notes a little and reshaped the slur to avoid it. It's close call. The one in 17 looks better than the one in 28. Maybe there is an (unwritten?) rule that ties should never start as far over as the left side of a note head. Perhaps the middle of the note head is limit.

The last system appears to be quite crowded, but some of this is because Dorico is not doing a good job spacing the cross staff accompaniment. There is too much space between the thumb notes, which makes the groups in each hand appear bunched up. Note also the bad cross staff note spacing in m. 29. They still have some work to do there.

[RMK]

The last system appears to be quite crowded, but some of this is because Dorico is not doing a good job spacing the cross staff accompaniment.
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I wonder if Ben neglected to check the "optical spacing for cross staff notes" box. For some reason it is off by default. I had a similar problem in a harp part and turning on this option fixed everything.

[benwiggy]

Yes, indeed I did! That fixes b. 29.

I prefer a fuller final system than the original, where the previous system is more full and the last system seems very light in comparison. But I'll try it like that.

[John Ruggero]

It's one of those cases where one or the other system is going to be under-filled, but maybe the Breitkopf solution is the better one. The first edition does it this way also. There is a lot to admire in the first edition regarding placement of various items, like the swell in m. 1 and the two ties.

Note the indenting of the final chord in the Breitkopf. Very classy. Dorico should have an option do this automatically for one-note measures, but the suggestion met with no interest. Maybe it was incorporated in the latest version.

[Anders Hedelin]

Slurs intersecting note stems do not disturb me, as slurs normally intersect other objects, staff and bar lines for example. Of course the slurs avoiding the stems in the examples above do not disturb me either.
Here are the first two systems in an older Peters edition. It would have looked even better if the slur arches were a bit more consistent and if their tips weren't allowed to touch the staff lines. Otherwise quite ok in my eyes.

Schumann - Peters.png (35.49 KiB) Viewed 4574 times

[Anders Hedelin]

As for Schumann's rhythmic notation, I guess it's the result of both poetic and practical deliberations. So, one aspect may be that the crotchets in the original are meant to express single, 'poetically long' notes.
The other aspect is that a rhythmically correct notation, as below, would look considerably more cluttered, and overly pedantic. (Which naturally would destroy the impression of single, stretched-out notes.)

Schumann - rhythmic notation.PNG (76.45 KiB) Viewed 4570 times

I would guess that much of contemporary music is too rhythmically complex to allow Schumann's kind of approximate and 'understood' notation. Interesting topic by the way.

[John Ruggero]

its possible that the double-stemmed notes are actually notated accurately rather than approximately in that Schumann mainly ascribed to the earlier style of showing notes at the value held by the fingers, rather than their actual length as held by the pedal. I myself would hold the double-stemmed notes for 4 eighth notes in value, rather than 5, in order to leave the keyboard gracefully to prepare for the next group.

[Anders Hedelin]

Then, if we look on it that precisely, there would have been a sixteenth rest after the quarter. I'm sorry, but I don't buy that explanation.