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Re: PPP

Posted: 26 Aug 2023, 19:08
by OCTO
From https://homes.luddy.indiana.edu/donbyrd/CMNExtremes.htm
Rastall (1982) contains a fairly extensive discussion of early uses of dynamic markings. In the items below, no distinction is made between words and their abbreviations, e.g., between f and forte.
  • Earliest use of any dynamic marking: Vincenzo Capirola's lutebook (ca. 1517) (Fig. 120 in the article "Notation" in Sadie, 2001).
  • Earliest use of pian[o] and forte: Giovanni Gabrieli: Sonata pian e forte, from Sacrae Symphoniae (1597).
  • Earliest use of mf: Gluck: Orfeo ed Euridice (1762), Act II Scene 1. Runners-up: Haydn: Piano Sonata no. 9 in D (1767; Peters-Martienssen ed.), II; F. X. Richter: String Quartet in B-flat, Op. 5 no. 2 (1768). NB: Rastall (1982) says C.P.E. Bach used mf, but gives no details.
  • Earliest use of mp: Schütz: Saul, was vergolst du mich (ca. 1650) from Symphoniae sacrae III (Barenreiter; reprinted in Burkholder, 2006) (contributed by Cuthbert). Runners-up: Haydn: Quartet Op. 77 no. 2 (1799; pub. 1803), I (contributed by Solow); Liszt: Transcendental Etude no. 4 ("Mazeppa") (1827, rev. 1837). Rastall (1982) says mp appears later than mf, but gives no details. Badura-Skoda (1962) says Mozart knew of mp as well as mf, writing "pf" for the former, but gives no further details.
  • Earliest use of fp: Johann Stamitz: Sinfonia in E-flat ("La Melodia Germanica" no. 3) (1755), I. Runner-up: Mozart: Piano Sonata in F, K.280 (1774), III.
  • Earliest use of pp: Schütz: Saul, was vergolst du mich (ca. 1650) from Symphoniae sacrae III (Barenreiter; reprinted in Burkholder, 2006) (contributed by Cuthbert). Runners-up: Handel: The Messiah (1742), Nos. 17 ("Glory to God"), 18 ("Rejoice greatly", final version), etc. Johann Stamitz: Sinfonia in E-flat ("La Melodia Germanica" no. 3) (1755), I; Haydn: Symphony no. 7 ("Midi") (1761), I. NB: Rastall (1982) says pianissimo "appeared early in the 17th century".
  • Earliest use of ff: J.-J. Rousseau: Le Devin Du Village (1752), Scene 1, air "J'ai perdu tout mon bonheur". Runners-up: Johann Stamitz: Sinfonia in E-flat ("La Melodia Germanica" no. 3) (1755), I; Haydn: Symphony no. 7 ("Midi") (1761), I.
  • Earliest use of ppp: Beethoven: Piano Concerto no. 5 in Eb ("Emperor"), Op. 73 (1809), I. Runner-up: Schubert: Erlkoenig, D. 328 (1815). NB: Warner (1977) says J. G. Tromlitz's Flute Treatise of 1791 mentions ppp.
  • Earliest use of fff: Haydn: Sieben letzten Worte (1787; Artaria), string quartet version and *orch. version (contributed by Hosar). Runners-up: Beethoven: Leonore Overture no. 3, Op. 72a (1806; Eulenberg ed.), m. 610; Beethoven: Piano Concerto no. 5 in Eb ("Emperor"), Op. 73 (1809), I. NB: Warner (1977) says J. G. Tromlitz's Flute Treatise of 1791 mentions fff.
  • Earliest use of pppp: Berlioz: Symphonie Fantastique, Op. 14 (1830; Breitkopf & Hartel ed.), V, m. 345, double bass. Runners-up: Berlioz's Roméo et Juliette (1839; Breitkopf & Hartel ed.), no. 4, "La reine Mab, reine des songes", in the celli four bars before rehearsal no. 54 (contributed by Bala); Wolf: In der fruehe (1888; Peters ed.).
  • Earliest use of ffff: Unknown. Tchaikovsky: 1812 Overture (1880) uses it, but his The Tempest, Op. 18 (1873) already used fffff (5 f's).
  • Earliest use of forte possibile: Dussek: Piano Sonata in E-flat, Op. 44 (publ. 1800), I. An interesting runner-up is Chopin: Etudes, Op. 25 (1832-36; Paderewski ed.), nos. 10 in b and 12 in c, but there were almost certainly other uses between 1800 and this.
  • Earliest use of hairpins: According to Rastall (1982), hairpins are first used in the violin sonatas of Piani (1712). Distant runners-up: Haydn: Piano Sonatas no. 9 in D (1767), I; no. 2 in e (1778), I; and no. 5 in C (1780), I (all Peters-Martienssen ed.); Mozart: Piano Sonata in D, K. 576 (1789), II (Presser/Broder ed.). But surely there were many uses between 1712 and 1767!
But as stated above by @Fred G. Unn , it is not completely valid source.

Re: PPP

Posted: 26 Aug 2023, 19:18
by musicus
I appreciate all the comments about this topic. Many thanks.

Re: PPP

Posted: 27 Aug 2023, 13:15
by John Ruggero
Fred G. Unn wrote: 26 Aug 2023, 17:30 Can anyone translate the **) footnote in John's top image? It looks like it's saying something about ppp but Google Translate on my phone isn't too happy with it.
I missed it, Fred. There it is in the Türk. I believe it says something to the effect that when a greater degree of softnesss is required than pp, one would use ppp. (Someone fluent in German please correct me if I am wrong.) But no fff, for some reason.

As OCTO said, the Indiana list is not that accurate. Beethoven's op. 53 may be his first use of ppp, not op. 73. And it misses the mention of ppp in the Turk in 1789 like I did. ;)

Re: PPP

Posted: 28 Aug 2023, 03:28
by Fred G. Unn
That's two separate references within a short time span (1789-1791) for ppp then. Clearly it must have been in use by some composers around that time. It would be interesting to see an actual musical example if someone could find one, but in terms of answering the original question of "approximately when," that's gotta be a pretty close answer.

Re: PPP

Posted: 28 Aug 2023, 13:00
by John Ruggero
Then there is fff. Perhaps instruments of that time were not capable of extremely loud dynamics, or at least the stringed keyboard instruments weren't. Or it was considered bad taste to play so loudly.

Re: PPP

Posted: 14 Sep 2023, 04:55
by bophead
John Ruggero wrote: 27 Aug 2023, 13:15
Fred G. Unn wrote: 26 Aug 2023, 17:30 Can anyone translate the **) footnote in John's top image? It looks like it's saying something about ppp but Google Translate on my phone isn't too happy with it.
I missed it, Fred. There it is in the Türk. I believe it says something to the effect that when a greater degree of softnesss is required than pp, one would use ppp. (Someone fluent in German please correct me if I am wrong.) But no fff, for some reason. [...]
The translation of "piano" in this glossary is "schwach" (weak) and not "leise" (soft [volume]) (like it is usually used and like I was taught as well long time ago), so this obviously relates to touch/attack.

So the translation of the sentence in question is: "In order to determine a very high degree of weakness [see my remark above] one might as well say: ppp."

Re: PPP

Posted: 15 Sep 2023, 03:00
by John Ruggero
Thanks, bophead. Yours is more literal than mine but seems to give the same sense, so I guess I wasn't too far off. The whole section refers to Stärke (strength) and Schwäche (weakness) in conjunction with the dynamic signs, so those terms seemed to roughly translate into what we would call loud and soft. And we also say to play stronger or weaker meaning louder or softer. So I am not sure it is referring to touch specifically, although pianists say to play with a stronger or weaker touch, again meaning louder or softer.