Stem Direction question

[John Ruggero]

Looking at the Wiener Urtext sample, were I to engrave this, I would need to think twice or thrice before changing stem directions like that.

This may not be what you mean, but not a lot of thinking was required, since they are just following the composer's manuscript, and Chopin is quite consistent. Sometimes one must decide whether there were extra-musical considerations like crowding, corrections, slips of the pen etc. that might have influenced the decisions, but otherwise engraving governed by the assumption that the composer knows what they are doing and that the notation is integral to the expression of their musical ideas is not hard at all. For me, it's a lot harder to constantly second-guess the composer, especially knowing that the composer knew their music much better than I will ever know it.

[John Ruggero]

The staff distances seem pretty close to identical, except maybe system 2 is a bit wider. If the engraver was valuing consistent vertical spacing, then there's not much choice in m8 or m17 as the beam would run into the LH on beat 4, especially if they didn't plan well and had already etched the staves, LOL!

In looking through the entire edition of the Nocturnes, the spacing varies considerably from system to system and page to page, so I doubt that was the case. To me this edition is beautifully done. Sample pages are available at:

https://www.universaledition.com/noctur ... ic-ut50065

Since each hand may have notes on both staves in the older style, the staff distances may be a little closer than with the more modern right vs left hand distribution. I think that this edition exemplifies my notion that the two staves of a grand staff should cohere and appear forced apart by what appears between them.

[Anders Hedelin]

... I find some phrases read more easily with the stem up.

I suspect that many copyists today default to stem-down because that’s what their software does by default.

When I've tried to be "more flexible" about stem direction in my engravings, I've come to the rather banal conclusion that it's all about convention and habit. If you are used to one stem direction, another one looks wrong.

The question whether a different stem direction would hamper sight-reading has no evident answer to me. Perhaps a subject for some eager, young musicologist to do research on? (Just half-kidding.)

PS We had a discussion about syncopated dotted rhythms in another thread [viewtopic.php?t=1049&start=10] and there you convinced me that a certain notation could have some impact on the sight-reading and also the performance. Now I think that's true mostly in commercial recording situations. Musicians accustomed to playing Mahler, for example, couldn't very well complain about the notation, they just have to be able to do it.

Stem direction on the other hand is much less "dramatic", and I think orchestra musicians are quite quick to adjust to minor differences in notation, fx slurs placed in different directions, or slightly unusual stem directions etc. It's not like putting flags on quarters.

[John Ruggero]

When I first started using with students my edition of Bach's Inventions and Sinfonias, which preserves the composer's centered beaming, stemming and other idiosyncrasies, I was prepared for complaints about "how strange" it looked etc. But no one complained or even commented. They actually seemed oblivious to it. Nor have I ever received complaints about the difficulties of reading the Wiener Urtext editions, which are what I recommend. Nor have I ever heard other musicians complain about WU editions. Is it possible that only engravers are concerned about the "rules" of stem direction?

[Anders Hedelin]

Is it possible that only engravers are concerned about the "rules" of stem direction?

Good point.

[MichelRE]

I didn't expect this topic to be quite as divisive as it turned out.

well, as a composer and performer, who engraves my own music for publication, I'm going to go with the idea of flexibility in stem direction when it comes to the middle staff line.

for me, readability is more important than some arcane rule about absolute stem direction.

[JJP]

I didn't expect this topic to be quite as divisive as it turned out.

I wouldn't say "divisive". This has been a healthy discussion that highlights the different points of view. Some very learned and experienced people prefer one way over the other, and it's interesting to me to hear their reasoning.

[NeeraWM]

Certainly we engravers are much more attentive to details, and will always have stronger views here and there.
Musicians may not complain, but they certainly notice when something is off, or looks strange. It is just not their top priority to report.
As it was said before, backstage they will speak!

This kind of discussions are very healthy as they broaden our knowledge and experience!

[RMK]

Musicians may not complain, but they certainly notice when something is off, or looks strange. It is just not their top priority to report.

You have obviously never worked as an orchestral librarian!

[NeeraWM]

You have obviously never worked as an orchestral librarian!

I'm not sure I understand what you want to say with your message.