Page size order conventions

[NeeraWM]

Hello there,
hope you are all well!

Million-dollar question: when you see the description of a page of music, let's say 9x12 in or 250 x 320 mm, what do you visualise?
Is the first number indicating the width or the height?

Please motivate your opinion with specific countries' conventions.
You will understand why I'm asking this once I get a few of your replies, or it will spoil your judgment.

Thanks!

[MichelRE]

since most paper used in publishing is in portrait mode, I generally presume that the shorter number is the width, and the longer the length.

so 9 (width) x 12 (length)

most writing paper here is measured this way: 8.5 x 11 (letter), 8.5 x 14 (legal), etc...

[NeeraWM]

since most paper used in publishing is in portrait mode, I generally presume that the shorter number is the width, and the longer the length.

most writing paper here is measured this way: 8.5 x 11 (letter), 8.5 x 14 (legal), etc...

So this is your assumption based on habit and experience, rather than a rule you've studied somewhere, correct?
When you say "here" I assume USA (are there other countries officially using US-paper sizes?).
Thanks!

[MichelRE]

not USA, Canada.

there's no "rule", there's no need for it.
There are already the nomenclatures "portrait" and "landscape" which establish which direction the paper goes. Those two descriptors tell you what the disposition of the paper is. The size is a different matter.

So you can have 8.5 x 11 in either Portrait or Landscape mode.
And likewise, you can have 8.5 x 14 in either mode.
And this basically goes for every other paper size that you select when choosing specialty sizes )for example, in music publishing at the Canadian Music Centre, paper is available in basically any size you want it cut to, but comes in a selection of relatively standard sizes as well: 9 x 12, 9.5 x 12.5, 12 x 14, 12 x 17, and so forth.

[NeeraWM]

there's no "rule", there's no need for it.

Interesting.
So, lacking specification, if you see 9x12, what do you think?

In Italy, there is a convention I discovered today (!) among the library system that states that the first number is the height and the second number is the width. That is completely illogical to me, since already in the primary school we study that area of a rectangle is base times height, not height times base (even if the result is the same).
So, when I see a book 232x305, in Italy that means 232 high and 305 wide!!

[MichelRE]

paper size isn't math.

it's not "a rectangle", it's a sheet of paper upon which graphical information will be printed.

I'd say that the first thing you see is its "width", since we (Westerners) read from left to right = the width.
Then we are conscious of the "length", which indicates the slower movement of the eye as we read, after finishing each left-to-right horizontal movement.

I see it as perfectly logical to identify the first numeral as being the width, and the second as being the length.

lacking any specification, other than saying "this is a sheet of paper", then I see 9x12 as being 9 inches wide by 12 inches long.

[David Ward]

Every table of page sizes I can find gives the shorter side (width when portrait) first.

This table give the various ISO and N American paper sizes thus https://www.agooddaytoprint.com/page/pa ... -chart-faq. FYI the JIS (Japanese) B sizes are slightly larger https://www.papersizes.org/japanese-sizes.htm (likewise shown shorter side first).

FWIW my B4 scores are usually printed to the Japanese size, but only because the hardware used by the printers is Japanese.

[benwiggy]

The X axis is the horizontal, and the Y is the vertical. It's traditional to specify coordinates as X, Y. (Indeed, that's why X is before Y.)

[NeeraWM]

paper size isn't math.

This looks a lot like math to me!
Geometrically, a sheet of paper is a rectangle, unless I'm missing something in your statement.

I like your reflection on Westerners associating this coordinate system to what we write a lot.
What about cultures (like Japanese) that read vertically? From what I see the JIS specifications still state width x height.

I will try to recover the SBN (Sistema Bibliotecario Nazionale — National Library System) document where their convention (Y times X) is stated.
It will possibly be better for my health if I don't delve too much into why we Italians need to do things differently from everyone else.

The X axis is the horizontal, and the Y is the vertical. It's traditional to specify coordinates as X, Y. (Indeed, that's why X is before Y.)

This is exactly the explanation I was looking for!
Thank you Ben!

[MichelRE]

What about cultures (like Japanese) that read vertically? From what I see the JIS specifications still state width x height.

Japanese has actually been written horizontally since the mid 19th century. With both horizontal and vertical writing in use since before then under certain circumstances (for example signs on temples or where space was restricted.)

(Manga being a modern, popular, exception where vertical writing remains in use)