Italian question

[David Ward]

wouldn't "sordini/sordino" mean without using the SOFT pedal, rather than without the damper pedal?

anyone debating this may have some linguistic and pianistic problems that aren't related to Beethoven's notation.

I was taught that the movement was meant to be played pp, but without the aide of the soft pedal.
The damper pedals, on the other hand (foot?), were a completely different thing.

I'm foolishly sticking my neck out here, being a hopeless pianist.

However, I have spent a lot of time over many decades reading the Beethoven sonatas, and many of his other piano pieces large and small, to my inner ear. I think Beethoven's directions for the ‘soft pedal’ are usually (always?) along the lines of una corda, due corde, tre corde. On Beethoven's pianos weren't there usually three positions for the soft pedal? These would have shifted the keyboard to play on one, two or three strings.

John?

[Harpsichordmaker]

Here Henle says the Moonlight is to be played with the resonance pedale pressed - “senza sordini = without dampers”.

https://www.henle.de/blog/en/2013/06/24 ... -my-piano/

Again, a sideways glance at Beethoven is advisable. He opens his ‘Moonlight’ sonata with the performance directive senza sordino, hence not intending, say, ‘without the left pedal’, but on the contrary, ‘with the right pedal’. Beethoven is describing what happens mechanically when the right pedal is trodden: the dampers are lifted from all the strings, which is why the tones struck linger on, playing so to speak ‘without dampers’.

[Harpsichordmaker]

However, I remember that in Beethoven times pianos had a pedal-driven action which put a felt between the hammers and the strings, named “sordino”. Am I wrong?

[MichelRE]

Sorry, but I'm reading a whole load of horse-pucky in that Henle blog post.

[Hector Pascal]

A related question, if using the words "alla Fine" with a capital "F", does this mean that the composer has to include the word "Fine" at the intended end point?
Hector.

[John Ruggero]

Hopefully, the pianist will not interpret Ped. al fine to mean Ped. sempre.

But I do understand that Hector Pascal means "depress the sustain pedal and keep it down until the end of the movement."

Ped. sempre placed at the beginning of a piece would mean to me that the sustaining pedal is to be used throughout the piece in the standard way, not that it should be held down without ever lifting it throughout the piece. I am was concerned that Ped. al fine might be interpreted in the same way as Ped. sempre and thus a more elaborate Italian direction might be appropriate in this case.

Holding the pedal down throughout a piece is not a common effect. The debate about Moonlight Sonata hinges on the theory that Beethoven's piano had less resonance, so holding it down throughout all the changes of harmony might have been acceptable musically to create an eerie effect somewhat like holding down the pedal on a modern piano only enough to catch a little of the resonance (1/8 pedal). However the usual interpretation is that the pedal be used in the standard way, constantly depressing and lifting it to clear the melody and harmony.

Yes, senza sordino means depress the pedal so the dampers are off the strings. It is canceled by con sordino, let the dampers down so they stop the strings from vibrating. Here is an example from the third movement of the Moonlight Sonata:

Beethoven op 27 no 2.3.png (294.43 KiB) Viewed 18353 times

This was a totally counter-intuitive and cumbersome way to show pedaling, and Beethoven changed to a Ped. 0 system soon after the Moonlight Sonata. As David Ward mentioned, Beethoven's piano had a muting device much like the current soft pedal, that shifted the keyboard so that only two or one of the three strings was struck by the hammers: due corda, una corda, and tre corda, which meant normal position with all three strings struck.

It is not generally known that the muting effect of the soft pedal is not only the striking of the two strings instead of three, but also the effect of the hammers hitting the strings in between the grooves that are formed in the felt by constant hitting of the three strings per note. This means that the soft pedal can actually produce more than one muted sound by various degrees of depression. This is an underutilized effect and one unknown to many players.

[OCTO]

Ped. sempre placed at the beginning of a piece would mean to me that the sustaining pedal is to be used throughout the piece in the standard way, not that it should be held down without ever lifting it throughout the piece. I am was concerned that Ped. al fine might be interpreted in the same way as Ped. sempre and thus a more elaborate Italian direction might be appropriate in this case.

It may be beneficial if Hector could elaborate on the details of the composition, including its name and visual appearance, in order to provide clarity. Performing a contemporary piece with "Ped. alla fine" is a distinct experience from playing a composition by Beethoven.

[John Ruggero]

I too am curious about the intended effect.

There is a lesson in Beethoven's use of senza sordino and con sordino for piano pedaling, which is typical of his approach to music notation. His first thought was to make use of commonly used musical terminology to notate something that was not yet standardized. Only when that proved impractical did he resort to something new.

[musicus]

I am still debating it with myself. A side note: how often do we fully observe the
composers' indications? Look at Beethoven's metronome marking for the Hammerklavier,
opening mvt. How many can do it, or if they could, would they. Thanks for your comments.

Hopefully, the pianist will not interpret Ped. al fine to mean Ped. sempre.

Beethoven wrote:

Si dove suonare tutto questo pezza delicatissimamente e senza sordini (=dampers off the strings)

sempre pianissimo e senza sordini

over the opening measures of the Moonlight Sonata and musicians are still debating whether he meant to hold the pedal without lifting it through the entire movement, or keep using the pedal throughout the movement and changing with each change of harmony, which was also an unusual effect at the time.

[MichelRE]

I wouldn't interpret "ped. sempre" as meaning to hold the sustain pedal until the end. I'm looking at this as a pianist.
I WOULD, however, hold it until the end if it said "pedal sempre alla fine". I've come across a few works that required this over the years.

however, in my own notation, I tend to just use "con ped" as in "use the pedal as you normally would", to mean quite simply "use the pedal" (to the contrary of "senza ped.")