Quintuplet, a correct one?

[Mr_Incognito]

What time was that? Before Brahms?

Roughly till Ravel.

But as you perhaps noticed in Eric Taylor's music examples Brahms used the surplus method even for duplets on a dotted note value.

+ Schumann. Both solo piano pieces, which are generally wonderful for engraving, being less systematic, as a rule. Someone might want to pick the subject for some thesis

The ground rule (and still is) was overfilling values for simple, and the opposite for compound. Debussy does it "correctly" at the very beginning of Claire de lune. I recall Ravel avoiding the tuplet signs like plague, but for abandoning the rule this example from L'heure comes to my mind:

[Magnus Johansson]

Debussy does it "correctly" at the very beginning of Claire de lune. I recall Ravel avoiding the tuplet signs like plague, but for abandoning the rule this example from L'heure comes to my mind:

Yes, Clair de lune has eighth note duplets on dotted quarter notes in bar 3, but the Ravel excerpt uses sixteenth note triplets on regular eighth notes so it is not an example of a tuplet on a dotted note value. I am still interested in examples other than Vaughan Williams' of deficit tuplets - other than duplets - on dotted note values.

[Magnus Johansson]

https://musictheory.pugetsound.edu/mt21c/meter.html

Thanks for the link, Djuro. I believe the English terminology differs somewhat from the Swedish terminology in this matter. However, I continued reading chapter 4.5 after the meter chapter 4.4: https://musictheory.pugetsound.edu/mt21c/Tuplets.html

See that latter chapters last music example.

[OCTO]

https://musictheory.pugetsound.edu/mt21c/Tuplets.html

See that latter chapters last music example.

Yes, and that is, to me, illogical. What happens if you split each duplet (of the 2:3) into two, getting in total 4 notes?  You split one eight into two -- eights?  What about rhythm: instead of one ?
AND: If you have in parallel 6/8 and 2/4 -- this will not work.

The reduction system within the compound meters/beats is what I propose.

Here is one such in Bartok's "5 Pieces for piano" (1926):

Screenshot 2026-06-23 at 22.57.48.png (37.65 KiB) Viewed 792 times

Or from his last String Quartet No 6, both 2-plet and 4-plet:

Screenshot 2026-06-23 at 23.12.50.png (550.46 KiB) Viewed 789 times

[Magnus Johansson]

https://musictheory.pugetsound.edu/mt21c/Tuplets.html

See that latter chapters last music example.

Yes, and that is, to me, illogical. What happens if you split each duplet (of the 2:3) into two, getting in total 4 notes?  You split one eight into two -- eights?  What about rhythm: instead of one ?
AND: If you have in parallel 6/8 and 2/4 -- this will not work.

Yes, mixing deficit and surplus tuplet notation should be avoided, but I can't see that it won't work.

Here is one such in Bartok's "5 Pieces for piano" (1926):
Screenshot 2026-06-23 at 22.57.48.png

Or from his last String Quartet No 6, both 2-plet and 4-plet:

Screenshot 2026-06-23 at 23.12.50.png

Thanks for the examples. Bartók seems to be in the same camp as Vaughan Williams (and Živković). I would notate the bar from the piano piece like this:

Screenshot_20260624_093533.png (5.88 KiB) Viewed 751 times