Earliest use/History of Octave Transposing Clefs?

[LSL2026]

I really do not see the ton: in a common symphony score: the clarinets, the horns, the trumpets and the contrabasses.

English horn, Piccolo, Alto Flute, Bass Clarinet, Eb Clarinet - there could be a lot more in a larger orchestra.

But the direction of transposition is not visible in the key signature.

To an extent it is, if you know what you're looking for, because the key sig is "compensatory" - a Bb instrument will have a key sig that's a 2nd higher, which is 2 more sharps (which is the same as 2 fewer flats) than the rest of the instruments.

In a C score only 8 and 15 are used, and only for the extreme range instruments.

Kind of my point - MuseScore is using far more of them for instruments that aren't extreme range or have never used them in the past. But if you know a Piccolo sounds an 8ve higher, there's no need to put an 8 over the clef.

[LSL2026]

Göran Söllscher replied that he knows that Per-Olof Johnson was careful putting the 8 below the treble clef when writing for guitar, but Göran didn't know who was first with this in guitar music. He suggested to contact Gunnar Hansson. I will try to do that. I wrote to Mats Bergström also; let's see if he can tell us more.

Thanks for doing this! I'll be curious to find out the answer, especially as a guitarist.

[Magnus Johansson]

But the direction of transposition is not visible in the key signature.

To an extent it is, if you know what you're looking for, because the key sig is "compensatory" - a Bb instrument will have a key sig that's a 2nd higher, which is 2 more sharps (which is the same as 2 fewer flats) than the rest of the instruments.

But it doesn't say anything about which octave.

[...] But if you know a Piccolo sounds an 8ve higher, there's no need to put an 8 over the clef.

But if you don't know it is explanatory and in any case like Abdy Williams wrote a long time ago: "[...] an excellent guide to the eye of the reader [...]".

[Magnus Johansson]

Mats Bergström replied and said he finds the question interesting but also he didn't have an answer regarding the history of the "guitar clef" as I call it. He said he normally uses it when writing for guitar although he in later times has questioned its use.

[Magnus Johansson]

With the help of guitarists Göran Söllscher and Gunnar Hansson I am now back in the year 1943 for the first use of the "guitar clef" with an edition by Karl Scheit at Universal Edition of Mauro Giuliani's Sonata for guitar, opus 15. (I get an HTTP error when trying to attach an image of the Sonata. I hereby attach another example just for testing.)

Screenshot_20260827_105327_3.png (134.65 KiB) Viewed 329 times

[Magnus Johansson]

Following in time the old method of not specifying the octave for guitar music forward from the 1800's, there is an example in Heinrich Scherrer's Lauten- und Gitarre-schule written in 1911. Unfortunately I get an HTTP error when trying to attach the image, but Scherrer gives the range of the guitar in a stave with treble clef and states that it sounds an octave lower.

[LSL2026]

Mats Bergström replied and said he finds the question interesting but also he didn't have an answer regarding the history of the "guitar clef" as I call it. He said he normally uses it when writing for guitar although he in later times has questioned its use.

Thanks for asking. I too "grew out of it" for guitar music!

[LSL2026]

With the help of guitarists Göran Söllscher and Gunnar Hansson I am now back in the year 1943 for the first use of the "guitar clef" with an edition by Karl Scheit at Universal Edition of Mauro Giuliani's Sonata for guitar, opus 15. (I get an HTTP error when trying to attach an image of the Sonata. I hereby attach another example just for testing.)

Screenshot_20260827_105327_3.png

1943! Wow that's much earlier than I would have expected.

Thanks for looking this up!!!

[Magnus Johansson]

With the help of guitarists Göran Söllscher and Gunnar Hansson I am now back in the year 1943 for the first use of the "guitar clef" with an edition by Karl Scheit at Universal Edition of Mauro Giuliani's Sonata for guitar, opus 15. (I get an HTTP error when trying to attach an image of the Sonata. I hereby attach another example just for testing.)

Screenshot_20260827_105327_3.png

1943! Wow that's much earlier than I would have expected.

Thanks for looking this up!!!

You're welcome. Göran will get back if he finds something of interest. It looks now like Karl Scheit is important in this. He started as a violinist and maybe that made him think that violin and guitar shouldn't use the exact same clef because of the difference in register.

[Mr_Incognito]

Some composers came up with different ideas regarding the clef(s) for guitar

https://ks15.imslp.org/files/imglnks/us ... Pleyel.pdf