dots and triplets

[benwiggy]

I'm working on a piece of Haydn, from the original Breitkopf printed edition of 1780s.

Similar musical phrases are repeated, but they seem to be written in two different ways.

One like this:

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and one like this:

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EDIT: (the music appears without the triplet FIRST.)

Now I believe that a dotted quaver could mean "a quaver and a bit" in this period. There's also "heavy tremolo action" in the other string parts, so I'm not sure what the benefit of the triplet is. It's also fast enough not to matter.

Do we think that the triplet was an erroneous addition, or an erroneous omission? Modern editions seem to favour changing all to triplets. But I just want to discount the possibility of an alternative reading, such as:

Screenshot 3.png (28.94 KiB) Viewed 5580 times

[tisimst]

I’m no expert by any means, but in all my time of scanning through music, I feel like this falls on the omission side. I’ve seen many scores that will indicate such triplets for a few bars and then omit the 3 for any similar passage afterwards. Either way, it’s certainly confusing as it currently stands, if you ask me.

[benwiggy]

The omission occurs first! Sorry - that's the crucial bit of info.

The slurring is also sloppier at the start, and seems to improve, so perhaps they gave the first few pages to the apprentice.

[tisimst]

Oh! Well that certainly is odd, then. Does make you wonder if it was intentional or just oversight.

[John Ruggero]

It's a great question to ask. I agree with tisimst that they probably should all be triplets. But context can be everything. What is the piece? Is there an autographs available? etc. There needs to be musical justification for the two roulades starting at different divisions of the beat so that the first is faster than the second. It's not that common a situation.

[benwiggy]

I'm sure you're right. But -- following on from your marvellous posts about assumptions and corrections by editors, I wanted to check that I wasn't making a similar error. (Also, slightly out of my area with music after 1750!)

It's Haydn's "Insanae et vanae curae", which is a Latin re-setting of a chorus from his oratorio "Il Ritorno di Tobia". It was given a Latin (and German) religious text for use as a motet in churches. This was done with Haydn's approval, if not by him directly.

(I love it: it's 'the Classical era distilled into 6 minutes'.)

[John Ruggero]

Thanks again, Ben.

I found it online at IMSLP. The musical context confirms that the triplet signs were accidentally omitted. The four-note roulade is a replacement of the three-note roulade motive that starts the piece and appears immediately before the appearance of the the triplet version (encircled in the following example). (This was forced because it needed to bridge two harmonies rather than functioning within one.) It therefore occupies the same amount of space in the rhythm. The five-note roulade is a different motive (probably derived from the three note-motive) but distinct from it and it justifiably occupies twice the space.

Haydn A.jpeg (41.26 KiB) Viewed 5529 times

Haydn B.jpeg (31.91 KiB) Viewed 5529 times

The piano vocal score of the whole work and the organ arrangement of the excerpt at IMSLP have the triplet sign.

[benwiggy]

Thanks, John. I've also found a copy of the original oratorio, which has triplets. (And some staccato markings, which I think I'll show editorially.)

There are also 'issues of clarity' with the slurring. (For example, your Haydn A: should the slur go into the second bar? That's my instinct, and what other editions do.)

But the other problem is figures that are repeated either as even notes or as dotted rhythms.

This phrase:

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is doubled by instruments:

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But it's also found with even notes, even when the strings are dotted at the same point:

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(As an aside, it's interesting that Breitkopf uses the same notehead for semibreves and minims.)

[benwiggy]

Instances where the choir are singing homorhythmically, except for the dot, muddy the waters somewhat:

Screenshot 11.png (287.52 KiB) Viewed 5510 times

The Basses have the dotted rhythm, but not the upper voices.

(Traditionally, everyone sings them dotted, because it's more fun.)

[John Ruggero]

A few of the phrases written as straight eights seem best that way, others in dotted rhythm are best that way, but others in even eighths seem highly questionable and better dotted. I think the difference between the two rhythms is refreshing and should be preserved wherever it seems to enhance the feeling of the music. But some editorial intervention is necessary. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlp5wmrttcI seems to get it right.

Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven weren't always careful about showing the exact beginnings and endings of the the slurs, (although Haydn's manuscript rivals Mozart for precision in all other ways), which leads to questions like the slur you mention. There is a change of dynamic at that point, which might or might not have some bearing on the issue in this case. Sometimes there seems to be a conscious attempt to slur with the harmony, in other cases not. It is a vexing issue.

The use of the same note head for half and whole notes was common at that time.