double-stopped trills

[John Ruggero]

I prefer the older usage mentioned by OCTO with trill squiggles used only for tied trills, since it cuts down on clutter. If one engraves a lot of older music, it's not a bad idea to create a library of trills and turns with all the various possible accidentals in Finale's shape designer. The style with the accidental in front of the tr is yet another option.

The example is from an older Peters edition of the Beethoven piano sonatas. The tr symbols are quite large. Yours are on the smaller side.

[OCTO]

If I'm understanding correctly, you would probably leave out the wavy lines entirely since there are no tied notes in this instance?
I think my reflex as that there is so much going on in the orchestra part (horizontally speaking... as in the orchestra part makes for very wide measures), that I felt using the wavy lines in the solo part (in the score itself) was justified.
So I guess I could leave out the wavy lines in the actual extracted solo part?

The wavy lines follow the exact rule of the tie. On untied notes, there should not be a wavy line. Remember that some, usually older, editions might include these, but it doesn't seem to be correct.
The long wavy lines above single notes that make bars "wider" will not force professional musicians to "keep trilling until the end", since the trill is by the rule applied to the entire note (Amateur musicians and young students might stop trilling, but they will finally learn by a good teacher's help that the trill must be kept all the way along). You can practically save the horizontal space - and thus burden of reading the meaningless white space with trill line - while keeping the spacing as they are regular half notes without the wavy lines.

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if I remove the wavy line element, that will allow me to simply use an articulation trill+accidental, which I think is easier to get right.

Yes, as an articulation it would be the easiest.

[John Ruggero]

On untied notes, there should not be a wavy line. Remember that some, usually older, editions might include these, but it doesn't seem to be correct.

While I personally agree with OCTO's rule, E. Gould says that the trill line is "optional for single notes" and all but one of her many examples for trilled single notes actually includes the line, so that seems to be her preference.

I think that the use of the trill line for all trills is actually a later usage that came about, possibly because 1. some composers are not aware of the older rule and 2. because there is an ambiguity with the tr symbol in keyboard writing. Sometimes the tr is used to mean a short three-note trill ("inverted mordent" in English usage) as an alternate to the short trill chevron and therefore does not mean to trill through the entire note. This occurs quite frequently in Chopin's music where he seems to distinguish short trills that start before the beat from those that start on the beat by this means.

It is my impression that the older rule is more closely adhered to by string players since fast three-note trills are less common in string writing than in keyboard writing and written out as small notes rather than using symbols.

[MichelRE]

that WOULD explain my instinctive preference for trills with the wavy line extension, since I come from a keyboard background, and to my eye, seeing just the trill articulation creates an uneasy ambiguity for me.

[OCTO]

I think that the use of the trill line for all trills is actually a later usage that came about, possibly because 1. some composers are not aware of the older rule and 2. because there is an ambiguity with the tr symbol in keyboard writing. Sometimes the tr is used to mean a short three-note trill ("inverted mordent" in English usage) as an alternate to the short trill chevron and therefore does not mean to trill through the entire note. This occurs quite frequently in Chopin's music where he seems to distinguish short trills that start before the beat from those that start on the beat by this means.

Agreed!

[MichelRE]

Interestingly, while looking for trill markings in more recent piano scores in my library, I took a gander at Ravel's piano trio, and noticed that he (or his publisher, Durand) used the wavy line extensions on single notes in the last movement in the string parts.

In his piano concerto the wavy extensions are also used on single trilled notes.

[OCTO]

Interestingly, while looking for trill markings in more recent piano scores in my library, I took a gander at Ravel's piano trio, and noticed that he (or his publisher, Durand) used the wavy line extensions on single notes in the last movement in the string parts.

In his piano concerto the wavy extensions are also used on single trilled notes.

Yes, you can leave as it is, but in my opinion it is not needed, and will be more spacing efficient.
Now I checked numerous scores I have here, and the most of them don't have extension lines. And yes, some do.
Several editions have various interesting solutions though.

[MichelRE]

I'm curious: I've never been fond of the look of a trill with the accidental above the trill symbol. I always preferred the accidental to be to the right.
While the way I prefer may steal a bit of horizontal real estate, the accidental above tends to restrict vertical real estate.
I guess I could imagine examples where the horizontal spacing is so tight that placing the accidental above would be a better solution.


regarding the examples you posted immediately above, the 2nd one, is this the type of situation where you might consider placing the trill symbol within the staff instead of above? (the trill on the - I presume that's an - E#) That trill is awfully far from the note it affects.

[OCTO]

I'm curious: I've never been fond of the look of a trill with the accidental above the trill symbol. I always preferred the accidental to be to the right.
While the way I prefer may steal a bit of horizontal real estate, the accidental above tends to restrict vertical real estate.
I guess I could imagine examples where the horizontal spacing is so tight that placing the accidental above would be a better solution.

I believe everything is up to personal taste in the case all options are possible. In my piece here having the accidental to the right would not work:

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regarding the examples you posted immediately above, the 2nd one, is this the type of situation where you might consider placing the trill symbol within the staff instead of above? (the trill on the - I presume that's an - E#) That trill is awfully far from the note it affects.

Ah yes, it looks so. I haven't noticed until you told me!

[John Ruggero]

I'm curious: I've never been fond of the look of a trill with the accidental above the trill symbol. I always preferred the accidental to be to the right.
While the way I prefer may steal a bit of horizontal real estate, the accidental above tends to restrict vertical real estate.
I guess I could imagine examples where the horizontal spacing is so tight that placing the accidental above would be a better solution.

And as I mentioned, there is also the possibility of placing the accidental to the left of the tr symbol. That was Beethoven's system, and it has the advantage of not conflicting with a trill line.