how to show dotted rest

[Anders Hedelin]

Thanks OCTO for a very succinct rendering of the traditional rules I would have expected to be known, if not always followed, by any composer or arranger.
Here's an entertaing bonus example:

Stravinsky-Schott.JPG (24.72 KiB) Viewed 5241 times

(Schott's edition of Stravinsky's Dumbarton Oaks.)
I take it that Stravinsky knew the basic rules very well before abandoning some of them.

[Anders Hedelin]

Stravinsky's unorthodox dotted eighth rests appear already in Petrouchka (B&H), together with even more unorthodox dotted quarter rests like: 2/4 !
Possibly this was motivated by his living up to the role as a leading modernist at the time. Another contemporary modernist, Schoenberg, "the conservative revolutionary", writes his rests in a neatly traditional way:

Schoenberg.JPG (39.46 KiB) Viewed 5212 times

(Wind Quintet Op. 26, 1924)
Thanks from a retired music theory teacher, Arnold!

[John Ruggero]

I take it that Stravinsky knew the basic rules very well before abandoning some of them.

One would like to think that he had thought it through and decided not to follow rules that he considered illogical. But the problem is that he does not seem consistent with these trailing dotted rests. So one doesn't know what to think. Two examples from the same short piece:

Stravinsky Dylan T 1.png (253.98 KiB) Viewed 5192 times

Stravinsky Dylan T 2.png (292.03 KiB) Viewed 5192 times

Possibly he uses them when there are more rests coming; but not when there aren't and more precision is required.

[NeeraWM]

Also Paul Hindemith writes about this in his Elementary Training for Musicians book.
His simple reason is rhythm clarity, which I guess is good enough!
Syncopated rests are so unclear to read.

[John Ruggero]

Syncopated rests are so unclear to read.

They certainly can be when interspersed in a confusing way. But, to play the devil's advocate, so can notes themselves, for example


What about simple cases of "trailing" rests? Is the really harder to read than the in the previous Stravinsky example?

I think that some combinations of notes and rests have been banned because they can be confusing, not because they always are, and some like Stravinsky apparently, have disagreed with that decision.

[NeeraWM]

What about simple cases of "trailing" rests? Is the really harder to read than the in the previous Stravinsky example?

I believe the Stravinsky example is more confusing when using the dotted rest.
I don't know if this may be the scientific explanation, but when I see a dotted rest (or note), I always subdivide it as note+dot (2+1), never as dot+note (1+2). If this happens in simple metre, then one should look a bit earlier or later in the bar to see if there is a beat, or half a bar, that wants to mimic the feel of a compound bar. In that case it would be understandable.

In general, I try to avoid trailing dotted notes for this reason.
It is not a tragedy if one or two happens, such as 4/4 minim + 8th rest + dotted quarter, but I would not overuse it.

[John Ruggero]

For some reason, that explanation resonates to me for rests, but not for notes. I am completely comfortable with
(However, A. Arnstein probably would have split up the which I would have disagreed with strongly.) That fact makes me wonder if I am not just reacting to the being less familiar.

[NeeraWM]

I am also completely comfortable with your example in common time, but I believe you are right in pointing to it possibly just being more common.
Given how modern softwares struggle with drawing good ties, they may become increasingly common.
In 4/4 I would also disagree with splitting it.

[Anders Hedelin]

Poor musicians, when they are to make themselves accustomed to Tom Dick and Harry's individual notations!
What happened to the belief in traditional notation? It may not be more right in itself, academically, but it certainly makes reading music easier, and safer, because it's more familiar - if we assume that musicians are fairly educated and experienced people.

[John Ruggero]

Poor musicians, when they are to make themselves accustomed to Tom Dick and Harry's individual notations!
What happened to the belief in traditional notation? It may not be more right in itself, academically, but it certainly makes reading music easier, and safer, because it's more familiar - if we assume that musicians are fairly educated and experienced people.

That sums up Arnstein's philosophy: don't surprise the player with anything unfamiliar. They have enough to do already.