NOTATIO

I'm somewhat out of my depth, creating an orchestration.

Gould introduces slurs thus: "The slur has a number of different meanings relating to articulation in addition to its general use as a phrase mark. For the wind player, it is the number of notes not separately tongued; for the string player, the number of notes in a bow stroke; for the singer, the number of notes sung to one syllable."
(Emphasis mine.)

In the chapter on strings: "a slur indicates notes to be played in one bow stroke. A slur in string music should always indicate bowing."
For wind: "Phrasing indications are best omitted from wind music: reserve the slur to show legato articulation."

This suggests that "the general use as a phrase mark" is somewhat overstated.

If I have eight bars of music, how would I indicate that they are meant to be two four-bar phrases? Or four two-bar phrases? While it's easy to indicate where the wind should breathe: how do I indicate where they should not?

I assume you meant "separately tongued". Autocorrect?

In my experience string players often ignaore printed bowings (either bowing marks or slurs).

If this is an orchestral work then you will need to rely on the conductor's musical sense. Perhaps a footnote in the score might be warranted if the phrasing is not readily inferable.

For strings/winds I have used in my works two options:
1. A normal slur with the technical indication "slurs are phrasing" (this can be also done with a footer-text)
2. A dashed slur with the indication "phrasing".

But if you work on older scores that might be in question.
Anyway, Wagner used long slurs, and not only he but many other romantic works, so the orchestra musicians used to break the slur where they think is the most efficient (such as changing position or changing string).

An excellent example of musicians completely ignoring the marked slurs is Samuel Barber's Adagio, from his string quartet. The slurs as printed are physically impossible to play, they are far too long. So basically, you will get completely different bowing from each group performing the work! (I've seen some very creative bowing for the orchestra version, with staggered bowing at different desks.)

The only place slurs are effectively used as phrase marks is in keyboard music and music for similar instruments that are not bowed or tongued. Anytime you put phrase marks in bowed or tongued music, you end up with a mess as the performers write in their own slurs for bowing and tonguing.

OK, no slurs it is, then!

Thanks, all.

benwiggy wrote: ↑24 Aug 2024, 09:06 While it's easy to indicate where the wind should breathe: how do I indicate where they should not?

If you really want no breath, use the dashed slur - but only where you don't want the breath, i.e. from the last note of the bar to the first note of the next bar, NOT over the whole phrase.

JJP wrote: ↑24 Aug 2024, 16:28 The only place slurs are effectively used as phrase marks is in keyboard music and music for similar instruments that are not bowed or tongued..

For the record, in my opinion, slurs should not be used to show musical phrases in piano music either. Slurs should be reserved as marks of articulation only. Other symbols, such as OCTO's dashed slurs or L-brackets, should be used when it is necessary to show the phrases, or great confusion ensues, a confusion that continues on to the present day among pianists.

... and to be honest, they've fairly superfluous in vocal music, too!

John Ruggero wrote: ↑25 Aug 2024, 01:02 For the record, in my opinion, slurs should not be used to show musical phrases in piano music either. Slurs should be reserved as marks of articulation only. Other symbols, such as OCTO's dashed slurs or L-brackets, should be used when it is necessary to show the phrases, or great confusion ensues, a confusion that continues on to the present day among pianists.

After reading your post, I fully agree. I also agree with @benwiggy. They are pointless confusion in vocal music as well.

When I think about it, I never use slurs as phrase marks when orchestrating. It’s always unclear. If I need to indicate a phrase, then there is some other problem in the writing that must be addressed. In fact, I can’t think of a single instance where slurs as phrase markings were particularly helpful.

May we perhaps place a worldwide moratorium on the use of slurs to indicate phrases in any music that is meant for performance? We will let the theorists keep them for analysis.