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A Question of Hearing and Notation in Beethoven

Posted: 05 Apr 2025, 20:58
by John Ruggero
Anyone hear the upbeat to the first movement of Beethoven's piano Sonata op. 2 no. 1 as a dominant harmony (a C triad in root position) resolving to a tonic harmony (F minor) in measure 1?
Beethoven op 2 no 1.1 A.png
Beethoven op 2 no 1.1 A.png (296.69 KiB) Viewed 12579 times
If so, it might have a bearing on a well-known notational issue.

Re: A Question of Hearing and Notation in Beethoven

Posted: 06 Apr 2025, 12:36
by John Ruggero
No one?

The following examples might cast some light on the harmonic content of the upbeat:

At the recapitulation Beethoven transforms the single upbeat note C into an eight measure phrase that expresses a C dominant 7th chord that leads to the tonic F minor:
Beethoven op 2 no 1.1B.png
Beethoven op 2 no 1.1B.png (636.46 KiB) Viewed 11889 times
In the third movement of the piano Sonata op. 10 no. 2, the opening theme is given a imitative treatment that defines the harmonic content of the upbeats as it progresses. In each case, the upbeat begins a V-I progression:
Beethoven op 10 no 2.3A.png
Beethoven op 10 no 2.3A.png (268.21 KiB) Viewed 11889 times
Later entries are the same:
Beethoven op 10 no 2.3B.png
Beethoven op 10 no 2.3B.png (230.79 KiB) Viewed 11889 times
Beethoven op 10 no 2.3C.png
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In the second movement of the Symphony no. 1, there is similar imitative beginning that shows the V-I or I-V meaning of the upbeats in the same way:
Beethoven op 21.2.png
Beethoven op 21.2.png (391.17 KiB) Viewed 11889 times
One notes that in each case the upbeat is either a tenuto or legato note. This suggests that Beethoven made no error in omitting staccato indications for the upbeats in the piano sonatas op. 2 no. 1 or op. 10 no. 2, because he felt them as dominant harmonies that needed additional length to be heard as such. Almost all editions, including Schenker's, supply staccato dots for these notes, however.

Re: A Question of Hearing and Notation in Beethoven

Posted: 09 Apr 2025, 09:22
by NeeraWM
I certainly hear that as a Dominant upbeat, even if I'm not a pianist.
The lack of the staccato dot is a clear clue: tension should be heavier than resolution.

Sorry for not reacting sooner. I rely on emails to know what's happening around me and I think there is no way to receive email updates of new posts, just replies. Is that correct?

Re: A Question of Hearing and Notation in Beethoven

Posted: 09 Apr 2025, 21:30
by John Ruggero
Thanks for the response, Neera. I too hear it that way (including your interesting remark about tension vs relaxation), but not everyone does.

Context is everything when it comes to hearing certain things in music. The opening few notes of all these pieces could very well be heard as a single tonic harmony in other contexts. The fact that the C is an upbeat is one factor that causes some to hear it as a dominant harmony.

And speaking of context, here's an interesting experiment for readers of this post. Suppose Beethoven had written the start of op. 2 no. 1 like this? Would you hear the upbeat as dominant chord more clearly?
Beethoven op 2 no 1.1 alternative.png
Beethoven op 2 no 1.1 alternative.png (66.6 KiB) Viewed 8324 times
And there is definitely something that could be called retrospective hearing in tonal music. Op. 10 no. 2 and op. 21 are examples. Even if one at first doesn't recognize the initial upbeats as dominants, the following entries cause one to reinterpret the opening retrospectively. I think that when we are really able to understand what a trained musician hears it will be astounding and non-temporal. That is, the brain will be seen jumping back and forth within the music and reappraising it as it unfolds.

Regarding emails. I don't even know how to alert people to replies! I think I should learn.

Re: A Question of Hearing and Notation in Beethoven

Posted: 10 Apr 2025, 03:07
by JJP
John Ruggero wrote: 05 Apr 2025, 20:58 Anyone hear the upbeat to the first movement of Beethoven's piano Sonata op. 2 no. 1 as a dominant harmony (a C triad in root position) resolving to a tonic harmony (F minor) in measure 1?
I definitely hear this as implied dominant harmony. I would not go so far as to specify what inversion. There’s not enough info.

I also think that if the performer plays the articulations as written, it reinforces the harmony; as your other examples clearly illustrate. You will get no arguments from me on your interpretation.

Re: A Question of Hearing and Notation in Beethoven

Posted: 10 Apr 2025, 07:20
by NeeraWM
As a cellist who, at least in his times, got very little harmony training until it was too late to really matter—that was the way of the Italian education system—I got used to deduce harmonic function based on melodies. There are certainly many more possibilities compared to when harmonising a bass line, but it still is possible.
Exactly yesterday, when practicing a Dotzauer's due, I encountered this:
Screenshot 2025-04-10 alle 09.17.57.png
Screenshot 2025-04-10 alle 09.17.57.png (434.74 KiB) Viewed 7646 times
(notice the triplet with slurring 2+1) followed by this:
Screenshot 2025-04-10 alle 09.18.03.png
Screenshot 2025-04-10 alle 09.18.03.png (445.58 KiB) Viewed 7646 times
Notice the staccato dot on the second note.
One could have thought of a forgotten slur, but the murder weapon (the dot) is there!

Re: A Question of Hearing and Notation in Beethoven

Posted: 10 Apr 2025, 12:08
by John Ruggero
Thanks for your thoughts on this, JJP! Because of the leap of a fourth in the low register in all the examples, I do hear a root position dominant and then a root position tonic chord implied as if the C and following F were the bass voices for what follows.

That's an interesting example, Neera. Could you share more of the music? It would be helpful to see the second cello part and several measures before and after.

According to Schenkerian theory, all tonal (common practice style) melodies express functional harmony within themselves and don't need other melodies counterpointed against them to create it. So it is usually not difficult to hear the implicit harmony contained within a melody by a common practice style composer like Beethoven.

Re: A Question of Hearing and Notation in Beethoven

Posted: 10 Apr 2025, 14:29
by NeeraWM
Let's try with this, it is on a page turn:
Screenshot 2025-04-10 alle 16.29.03.png
Screenshot 2025-04-10 alle 16.29.03.png (6.35 MiB) Viewed 7190 times

Re: A Question of Hearing and Notation in Beethoven

Posted: 10 Apr 2025, 17:45
by harpsi
John Ruggero wrote: 05 Apr 2025, 20:58 Anyone hear the upbeat to the first movement of Beethoven's piano Sonata op. 2 no. 1 as a dominant harmony (a C triad in root position) resolving to a tonic harmony (F minor) in measure 1?
I never thought about the harmony, but have a soft spot for playing long upbeats :-) I certainly think it gives a better character to the phrase with the long upbeat.

At least in the Henle edition there is a parenthesis around the dot.

I like your interpretation of the extended upbeat bars in the retake -- I think that is a very valid way to think about it like that, because acting like if the upbeat is absent from the retake doesn't work since an upbeat theme contra a downbeat one has very different meanings in terms of poetic meter (is that understandable?).

Another association, maybe a bit far-fetched, is thinking of timpani. Here the dominant--tonic relation is by tradition completely clear no matter the context.

Re: A Question of Hearing and Notation in Beethoven

Posted: 10 Apr 2025, 19:36
by John Ruggero
Thanks, Neera. Given the context, that staccato looks like an error to me, and I myself would play a slurred two-note group like the rest. The piece is nicely engraved, but I see a substantial error in m. 7 of your second example, so inaccuracy is not out of the question.

Thanks for your thoughts, harpsi. I agree completely with your remark about the effect of an upbeat on character of the phrase. In this case, a long upbeat makes it much clearer that the motive consists of 4 staccato notes, sometimes with a long upbeat, sometimes without a upbeat (m. 3) sometimes with a short upbeat (m. 8 and m. 108). In the latter case, it negates the upbeat as a separate harmonic unit.

I am glad you agree about the enlargement of the upbeat before the recap. When I first noticed this, I was amazed and impressed by its ingenuity. Only a Beethoven could come up with this.

I get what you mean about the C-F as a timpani-like motive. There is also a special way Beethoven has of ending melodies with "timpani" strokes V-I, that I don't think is as common with other composers. Its like what is normally the bass part gets shifted up into the soprano. For example, in the last movement of the op. 2. no. 1:
Beethoven op 2 no 1.4.png
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