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Double Common Time Signature

Posted: 09 Apr 2025, 09:30
by NeeraWM
In this source from 1824-26, Dotzauer's first Violoncello School, there is this time signature:
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While it could be a misprint, it looks to me like a double-common time signature, with the two Cs slightly overlapping each other.
Since there is no other cut-C piece in the collection to look at, could this be a cut-C old style?
This was edition Schott, plate 2014, if one wants to investigate similar editions from the same time and publisher.

Re: Double Common Time Signature

Posted: 09 Apr 2025, 21:45
by John Ruggero
The second C looks like more like a hand addition rather than something engraved. Can't find it at IMSLP, Neera, so it's really hard to compare to other things in the collection. The music does look like 2/2, but there is no tempo indication to help nail it down.

Re: Double Common Time Signature

Posted: 10 Apr 2025, 07:15
by NeeraWM
Hi John,
I think this was still all "hand-copied", the fingering, beams, slurs, noteheads, look all too irregular for being made through hammering a lead sheet.
But one should ask Schott for this. When did lead-sheet-hammering become the standard and what was used for massive production before (if it was even done massively)?
This file is available here: https://imslp.org/wiki/Special:Imagefro ... 69115/vg21
The manuscript, though, seems to show the simple C quite clearly?
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Re: Double Common Time Signature

Posted: 10 Apr 2025, 11:15
by John Ruggero
Thanks, Neera. In looking over the whole Method file I notice some "ghosting" as if the ink from one page were being transferred to the another; perhaps pages of the original or a photocopy. Could this be the origin of the strange double C? Here is some on the opposite page from your original example:
Dotzauer .png
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I have looked high and low through the Dotzauer IMSLP listing of works and can't find the version of the Method you cited. just modern editions. Just to save my sanity, could you tell me where under what category your original edition is actually located at IMSLP?

The Method looks 'hand-engraved" to me; like a lot more than we are accustomed to seeing was engraved with a steady hand into the plate rather than struck with a hammer and a die,

Re: Double Common Time Signature

Posted: 10 Apr 2025, 14:27
by NeeraWM
Hi John!
it's in the Books category because, in theory, it has no opus number.
The autograph should be the top one: https://imslp.org/wiki/Metodo_per_Violo ... Friedrich)

Re: Double Common Time Signature

Posted: 10 Apr 2025, 20:00
by John Ruggero
Ah! Of course, in the books category. Duh...

So what do you think of my ghosting theory?

Re: Double Common Time Signature

Posted: 11 Apr 2025, 06:53
by NeeraWM
I think that you are right about a possible ghosting: the manuscript has a very big C while a few numbers later there is an also quite big cut C.
Dotzauer was not new to writing a possibly cut-C music in ordinary C. This was his op. 65 (1824-26) when he was 41-3 years old.
It is my assumption that he received quite a lot of feedback to his compositions and pedagogical material because he becomes increasingly precise in his notation with time.