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cues in divisi parts

Posted: 03 Nov 2021, 22:29
by MichelRE
the question is thus:

the movement starts with 5 bars of silence in the 1st violins.
they have cues from violas, then 2nd violins, before their unison entrance, which immediately becomes divisi (on two staves because of the complexity of what follows.)

Dorico seems to only allow me to put cues on the upper-most of the two divisi staves, not on the lower.
But quite honestly, it looks funny without cues in both staves.

I tried moving measures around to avoid having to use two staves for the beginning, but because of the immediate divisi after, and tight spacing in the score (while the part is looser spacing and can have more measures per system), I simply cannot move the divided measure over to the next system.

So, does having cue notes only on the upper-most staff look as weird to you as it does to me?
I mean, if the majority of opinions is that it's fine, then I'll leave it.
This is one of those things that Gould does not seem to address in her book.

Re: cues in divisi parts

Posted: 03 Nov 2021, 23:18
by RMK
In my 25 years as an orchestra librarian and 40 years as a copyist, I do not recall ever seeing identical cues on both staves of a divisi system.

One annoying aspect of Dorico is the way it handles bar rests in cues. There is no reason all three rests in the first three measures should not hang down from the top line. Easily fixed, but a pain when you have hundredds to deal with.

In my opinion you do not need the Violin 2 cues in mm.4 and 5. The Viola cue is helpful to establish tempo, but I think even orchestral violinists can be relied upon to count 10 beats of rest.

Re: cues in divisi parts

Posted: 03 Nov 2021, 23:41
by MichelRE
well, it's 2 bars of different time signatures, so I can't even take advantage of having a multi-measure rest there.
may as well leave the cue in.

I WAS able to reduce the part to using only one staff, meanwhile. it took a LOT of juggling and moving measures back and forth for a couple of pages.

And I agree with you on the whole measure rests in cues. They seem to waste much more room than they should.

Re: cues in divisi parts

Posted: 04 Nov 2021, 02:20
by John Ruggero
What you have done is almost the way it was done in A. Arnstein's office. Cues on the top line only, and cues all the way to the first note of the violin 1 entrance. No rests allowed between a cue and an entrance. Not even a short rest. However, Arnstein preferred all cues to be transposed and in the clef or clefs of the instrument whose part it was; in this case, they would be in the treble clef. All cues were up-stemmed, with whole rests below. I think the latter style was to keep the visual information as simple as possible, so the player never had to deal with distracting elements like changes of stem direction etc. As I have said previously, players loved Arnstein's orchestral parts and practically cheered when they saw him at the first rehearsal because they knew that they were in for a great rehearsal.

Re: cues in divisi parts

Posted: 04 Nov 2021, 04:05
by Hector Pascal
Hi everyone,
This is my first post here, though I have enjoyed reading for quite some while.
John's reference to A. Arnstein inspired me to research the name, and in doing so I found this interesting newspaper article. I am sure that you have all seen it, nevertheless I found it to be an inspiring article.

https://www.nytimes.com/1978/06/04/arch ... -view.html

Hope you are all well. Thanks for the interesting forum!
Cheers,
Hector.

Re: cues in divisi parts

Posted: 04 Nov 2021, 22:10
by John Ruggero
Dear Hector,

Several years ago, I tried to get permission to post that article and another one that appeared in the NY Times Magazine that concerned the premiere of Barber's Anthony and Cleopatra with a short section about Arnstein. But they were going to charge me an astronomical rate to do it. I guess they've lightened up. Thank so much for posting that and welcome to Notat.io!

There is also a Time Magazine article about him called "Copy Cat" that might now be posted.

Re: cues in divisi parts

Posted: 05 Nov 2021, 18:22
by OCTO
Hector Pascal wrote: 04 Nov 2021, 04:05 Hi everyone,
This is my first post here, though I have enjoyed reading for quite some while.
John's reference to A. Arnstein inspired me to research the name, and in doing so I found this interesting newspaper article. I am sure that you have all seen it, nevertheless I found it to be an inspiring article.

https://www.nytimes.com/1978/06/04/arch ... -view.html

Hope you are all well. Thanks for the interesting forum!
Cheers,
Hector.
Wow, wonderful - What amazing history to read!

Re: cues in divisi parts

Posted: 05 Feb 2022, 15:04
by MichelRE
there are a few strange errors in that article... for example he mentions that in 1990 Arnie "ran into" Menotti and has been his copyist ever since. Then goes on to say "Then came Menotti's big hit, The Medium."... but The Medium was from 1946 when it was premiered. It's a frustratingly confusing article. And there are a LOT of typos in it. At least in the version that's available on the web.

Re: cues in divisi parts

Posted: 05 Feb 2022, 16:30
by RMK
That is strange, considering that Arnstein closed the business in the early 80's, not to mention that he died in 1989...

Re: cues in divisi parts

Posted: 06 Feb 2022, 02:20
by John Ruggero
The transcriber of the article clearly made an error. Maybe 1940?

Arnstein met Leonard Bernstein during the 1930's in Paris I think he said and knew him very well. I was involved copying parts for the Bernstein Mass. It was quite a production. Along with the pit orchestra, vocal soloists, a boys chorus or others, there was a rock band, a blues band and a marching band, and a electronic part on tape. The parts for the marching band were logistical problem that he solved by having them spiral bound at the top so the players could flip them over easily. I held down the office while he stayed at the Watergate with Bernstein, since Bernstein was still finishing the score days before the premiere at the Kennedy Center. Bernstein would pass each page of score under his hotel room door as he finished it for Bernstein to copy. That was also typical of the Menotti operas we did. Menotti generally finished the libretto long before he started the music, which sometimes was only completely orchestrated a few days before the premiere.