Scordatura conventions

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NeeraWM
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Scordatura conventions

Post by NeeraWM »

Dear all,
I hope you are all well, and sorry for the long absence from the forum.

I have a question about scordatura for string instruments.
My current knowledge comes from being an experienced cello player who has gone through Bach V, Kodaly solo sonata, and Dutilleux Trois Strophes.
In all those cases, the notation is "transposed", that is "show me what to play and it will work". Dutilleux adds a small staff below the main one when needed.

Now, I've stumbled upon a few pieces by a living, your composer whom I will not mention, who wrote everything "at pitch".
If this were only the C string, one could say "fine", but since there are three strings with scordatura, I find this very hard to read, and also goes against well-established and, personally, solid conventions.
What is your opinion on the matter?

This may also open another rabbit-hole, but I will risk it: I believe many young and modern composers who use Sibelius (or its brothers) as a composing tool are just lazy to learn transposition for winds, brass etc, and are applying this to strings as well now. More and more composers ask me to engrave their scores "in C". Trying to play the Devil's Advocate, I will concede that, if you have perfect pitch and read something that sounds different, it will annoy you. But that's what clef reading is for, right?

Thank you!
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John Ruggero
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Re: Scordatura conventions

Post by John Ruggero »

A belated welcome back, Neera. The transposed vs C score controversy has been going on for at least a century. Of the composers that Arnstein dealt with, it might have been 50-50. There are good strong reasons for both, and these days, one can easily have both versions.

And the same with "transposed" scordatura scores, one of which drove me nuts when I tried to read the Bach at the keyboard. (Wonderful left hand alone practice and advocated by J. Brahms!) Fortunately there was an alternative version for normal tuning printed in the edition.
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NeeraWM
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Re: Scordatura conventions

Post by NeeraWM »

Forgive my ignorance, but who is this Arnstein you mentioned here and in other posts? Has he written some volume I should know about?

Thank you for solving the controversy. I definitely do not feel "a boomer" when preferring the old notation, but can understand why things may be evolving. The problem with higher strings scordatura is that, after the first interval of a fifth, you could get the same note on another, lower string, which may advocate for "in C" notation.
Sounds like a topic similar to "natural strings harmonic and where to play them!"
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John Ruggero
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Re: Scordatura conventions

Post by John Ruggero »

You are very welcome, Neera.

The following article will tell you all about Arnold Arnstein. I was his assistant and copyist for about 6 years during the 1970s. He had just finished Barber's Anthony and Cleopatra and Piano Concerto when I came on board, and we did Bernstein's Mass among many other works while I was there.

http://www.musicpreparation.biz/arnie

Unfortunately he never wrote a book. He was busy copying music right up until he died at quite an old age.
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NeeraWM
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Re: Scordatura conventions

Post by NeeraWM »

Thank you for the link, I truly enjoyed reading the article and will browse the rest of the website ASAP.
Fascinating how there was such a precise separation between copyists and engravers.
Nowadays I feel even the meaning of engraver has blurred to a point where a good definition is hard to find.
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John Ruggero
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Re: Scordatura conventions

Post by John Ruggero »

Actually, as understood it at the time, there were several divisions:

1. Copyists, who worked mostly by eye on transparent music paper. We used only a pen and ink and a ruler, somewhat like Euclid; also an electric eraser and occasionally, a flexible curve.

2. Autographers, who worked on a drawing board and used as much mechanical equipment as possible including decals for clefs, note heads, expressions. The result could be indistinguishable from plate engraving. The Halstan process mentioned at viewtopic.php?p=10450&sid=ff7244e1dd700 ... d28#p10450 was a type of autography.

3. plate engravers.

Most work was done by copyists because the expense, while quite high, was much less than the other options. The publisher decided when it was worth the expense to engrave the score of a new work, usually after it had proved itself through multiple performances. The orchestra parts usually remained in hand-copied form, however. When new parts were needed, we produced a duplicate set on a blue print machine.

There were different levels of hand copying. Some of Arnstein's copyist could produce results very close to autography. The hand copying of Arnstein's autographer, Mitzi Polnauer, was amazing and close to her autography.
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NeeraWM
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Re: Scordatura conventions

Post by NeeraWM »

That's amazing!
Thank you for sharing it, John!
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David Ward
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Re: Scordatura conventions

Post by David Ward »

NeeraWM wrote: 26 Mar 2023, 10:01… … …  More and more composers ask me to engrave their scores "in C". Trying to play the Devil's Advocate, I will concede that, if you have perfect pitch and read something that sounds different, it will annoy you. But that's what clef reading is for, right?
I always circulate my full scores with the same transpositions as will be seen in the parts. However, most of my younger composer colleagues here in Scotland (and further afield) publish their scores in C, except when they are for small chamber ensembles in which the score may be used as a rehearsal reference (or even a part) by the instrumentalists. FWIW Messiaen scores are mostly published in C, Boulez ones transposed.
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NeeraWM
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Re: Scordatura conventions

Post by NeeraWM »

As soon as there is an exception, we are all doomed! :-D
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John Ruggero
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Re: Scordatura conventions

Post by John Ruggero »

I just consulted Gould on the subject of scordatura. She suggests printing the music as it sounds on a cue staff above the other version. This might have page-turn implications, however.
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