Strange notation in Ravel

[Knut]

Yes, the high C# to B is played sliding the r.h. thumb - a standard technique on harp.

Then which finger plays the G?

Edit: Sorry, I think we're talking about two different groups of notes. As I said earlier, I question the execution of the last six notes of the measure. To make this work for one hand, it seems you would need to slide between the C# and the Bb with your index finger and play the last note, G, with your thumb.

But the last six notes are divided (depends how the passage continues), maybe 4+2 to right and left. In slower tempo those six notes could be played with one hand, like one uses in piano playing "finger over thumb".

If this is the case, and since we're talking about a run of , it doesn't seem right to have all six notes double stemmed.

[Callasmaniac]

Sorry, I was a bit unclear! The last six notes doublestemmed is indeed an error. As for sliding with index finger: it would not work as you would slide with your fingernail. Think harp is played with "two left hands" so thumb is always the highest finger (and little finger is never used). You *can* slide with other fingers than thumb, but only upwards.

[Knut]

Sorry, I was a bit unclear! The last six notes doublestemmed is indeed an error. As for sliding with index finger: it would not work as you would slide with your fingernail. Think harp is played with "two left hands" so thumb is always the highest finger (and little finger is never used). You *can* slide with other fingers than thumb, but only upwards.

Thanks!

It's obviously been a while since I've had to tackle the harp. Long enough to forget where the strings are, at least.

[MJCube]

In the Sonatine1 example, I notice the LH chord with fermata has notes on the ‘wrong’ sides of the stem! I wonder if there was a reason for that. I don’t recall ever seeing that in a plate engraving before. (It isn’t even possible in Sibelius without resorting to symbols.) John, did you notice this when you were recopying your Sonatine3 example? Is there a tool for this in Finale?

[David Ward]

… … …  Is there a tool for this in Finale?

I'm not trying to answer on behalf of John, but, yes, it is very quick & easy to move noteheads horizontally, independently of the stem, with the Notehead Position Tool in Finale.

[Knut]

In the Sonatine1 example, I notice the LH chord with fermata has notes on the ‘wrong’ sides of the stem! I wonder if there was a reason for that. I don’t recall ever seeing that in a plate engraving before.

This is fairly common in french engravings of this period. I've tried to find an answer to this question myself, but to no avail. It might have something to do with clarifying the interval relationships of the chord, but this is pure speculation on my part. Knowing John, though, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he knows what it's all about.

… … …  Is there a tool for this in Finale?

I'm not trying to answer on behalf of John, but, yes, it is very quick & easy to move noteheads horizontally, independently of the stem, with the Notehead Position Tool in Finale.

As far as I remember, this is also possible and even quicker in Speedy Entry/Edit Frame.

[Peter West]

As far as I remember, this is also possible and even quicker in Speedy Entry/Edit Frame.

yes, once the note has been found in the Frame Edit db, use the reverse up and reverse down boxes to achieve this

[John Ruggero]

I am sorry, MJCube, that it has taken me so long to respond to your wonderful observation.

I can think of only one possible explanation for this anomaly: it positions the fermata under the more important tone (or more from the engraving point of view: the outer note), E. Later the passage occurs in the recap in C# major with the fermata positioned OVER the more important (or outer) tone, C#.

It is interesting that in the recap, Ravel writes the LH second B C# on the lower staff, in the more expected place, because the RH must be in the bass clef, and the former interesting notation is now impossible; but he had made his point earlier so this was no problem. See attached:

Ravel Sonatine4 .jpg (75.65 KiB) Viewed 13850 times

[erelievonen]

I can think of only one possible explanation for this anomaly: it positions the fermata under the more important tone (or more from the engraving point of view: the outer note), E. Later the passage occurs in the recap in C# major with the fermata positioned OVER the more important (or outer) tone, C#. [...]

This notehead placement is no "anomaly", and it can be seen also in chords without a fermata – such as the first r.h. chord in the very next measure (in the Sonatine1 example). It is simply a house style issue, whereby the rule is:

Noteheads of adjacent seconds are placed on opposite sides of the stem. The top and bottom notes of a chord are always placed on the normal side of the stem.

This rule is now obsolete, but in the first edition of Ravel's Sonatine, a strict adherence to such a rule can be observed.

[John Ruggero]

I think that you have the right answer, Ere, it is just a house rule common at that time and place, as Knut implied. It is no anomaly, just tunnel vision on my part.

It often produces a very good result: the main melody note sits directly over the chord, but this is only accidental. When there is no lower note(s) present, a bare second is laid out in the way we expect, as in the example above. At one point in the Ravel there is lower note in a different voice, but the second is still laid as we would expect; then, when it is tied to a larger chord stemmed together, it flips, confirming your rule. See the second example attached.

Another example of "unorthodox" chordal seconds taken at random from Alkan Cello Sonata (Simon Richault 1857) (attached), and also see Bizet Jeux d'enfants (Durand) etc.