Distance between piano staves

[benwiggy]

I'm trying to find a quote by John Ruggero here, where he states that piano staves 'ought to look like they've been prised apart', or something.

I'm critiquing someone's work, and the mot juste would be ... well, juste.

[John Ruggero]

Hi, Ben. I think I said something to the effect that it should look as if the two staves were forced apart by what happens between them, that is, the notes, the indications etc. At least, that is what I try to do.

[benwiggy]

That's it. Thanks. I think it's a really helpful description.

[Ander]

If by "forced apart" you mean not required to all be a standard distance from each other, I couldn't agree more. Many publishers feel compelled to make piano systems as uniform as possible, but I think that does a disservice to the people who'll be trying to read them.

I'm sure I needn't convince anyone here that notation is a form of graphic art, with the goal of making music as attractive and legible as possible.

It's funny you should bring it up, but I've always felt that finding the best vertical spacing in piano music—both between and within systems—was an unusually holistic process. You want a system's staves to be no farther apart than necessary, to minimize eye-jumping; but not too close as to create clutter.

Debussy took great pains to make his music look beautiful on the page. Perhaps you'll agree, it's a look of beauty we're after, not mere "notation". Music is about beauty, so why shouldn't it look beautiful as well? Cheers, A.

[John Ruggero]

Yes, we are in complete agreement on all counts. I'm sorry that you are encountering publishers that want the staves to be a uniform distance apart. That has never been a requirement of or desirable in the fine engraving of most music.

[ThistleSifter]

For situations where there is not much in between, what would be the minimum distance you would allow between piano staves?

(And from a long time lurker, thankyou for that quote about forcing the staves apart, it's been very helpful)

[John Ruggero]

I work by eye and have no definite limit, but at a certain point notes and clefs run into each other and piano braces begin to distort (at least in Finale). So that would be too close. Otherwise, there can be cases where it is visually best for the staves to be quite close, as with cross-staff beamed groups (but not with "centered beaming" between the staves.)

[musicus]

I'm an artist, I only notice what is ugly.

If by "forced apart" you mean not required to all be a standard distance from each other, I couldn't agree more. Many publishers feel compelled to make piano systems as uniform as possible, but I think that does a disservice to the people who'll be trying to read them.

I'm sure I needn't convince anyone here that notation is a form of graphic art, with the goal of making music as attractive and legible as possible.

It's funny you should bring it up, but I've always felt that finding the best vertical spacing in piano music—both between and within systems—was an unusually holistic process. You want a system's staves to be no farther apart than necessary, to minimize eye-jumping; but not too close as to create clutter.

Debussy took great pains to make his music look beautiful on the page. Perhaps you'll agree, it's a look of beauty we're after, not mere "notation". Music is about beauty, so why shouldn't it look beautiful as well? Cheers, A.

[Felipe Copaja]

I just read this thread.
I fully agree with John. Just in case it helps, in Finale I use a default distance of 240 EPVU between piano staves, that's one space less that the default distance the program has. That comfortably gives me six systems per page.
If more space is needed, I would add space in 12 EPVU increments, half a space.

Felipe