Cymbal notation question

[MichelRE]

In an orchestral work, the percussionist always plays a suspended cymbal (ie: with sticks.)

However, at the very end I require a crash of two cymbals together.

How would I notate this?

All through the score, whenever there's been cymbal its staff has been indicated as "cym. susp." (in French, suspended cymbal.)

Which is actually a different instrument from the crashed cymbals, right?

So does its staff have a different name? just "cym." for example?
Do I also add an "a2" indication to make sure the percussionist knows it's a two-cymbal crash?

[David Ward]

In English I would be unequivocal. The list of percussion instruments at the beginning would include both Suspended Cymbal (with any required sub-types listed as appropriate) and Clashed Cymbals, then later I'd have something like ‘cyms. clashed’. Exactly how you might word this would depend on the layout of the part or percussion score.

If the stave is labelled ‘cym. sus’ almost throughout, I'd maybe change it to plain ‘cym.’ at the appropriate point and then put ‘clashed’ (or the best French equivalent) over or immediately before where it happens. As long as the instruction and the instruments required are unequivocal, I doubt that it matters exactly how it is worded.

[MichelRE]

thanks David.

It's often hard to find the exact wording required for this type of thing.
I notice that in Italian, for example, the notation "piatti" basically says "plates", plural, so obviously two clashed cymbals.

I guess I'll have to pull out all my Ravel and Debussy scores to try and find how it's notated in there.
My eyes are starting to go, so such tiny writing is becoming a real challenge for me to scan through.

[John Ruggero]

I seem to recall double-stemming an X notehead for a crashed cymbals crash with a verbal direction above.

[MichelRE]

yes, I was thinking maybe double-stemmed...
I'm just not sure how to achieve this in Dorico.

[MichelRE]

I really couldn't find any definitive answer to this particular notation question.

I have yet to get my hands on a real live percussionist... they aren't exactly running around the woods in their natural habitat here. (although, to be perfectly frank I'd have thought percussionists' natural habitat was more the back tables of seedy bars than the virgin forests of northern Quebec.)

[OCTO]

Give an instruction, as concise as possible, like "clashed".  Nothing more nor less.
Think you pay 10$ for each letter you write in the score...

[JJP]

Percussionist here. Simply mark one "suspended cymbal" or "sus. cym." (you can add, "w/stick" or "w/mallets" if necessary) and the other "piatti". Any percussionist should know what is desired.

"a2" or multiple stems will cause confusion because it looks like two performers or two instruments simultaneously.

[MichelRE]

thank-you @JJP

if I might abuse of your generosity for a minute...

can I specify hard and soft sticks with the suspended cymbal? ie: baguettes dure, and baguettes feutrées.

[JJP]

can I specify hard and soft sticks with the suspended cymbal? ie: baguettes dure, and baguettes feutrées.

Sorry for the slow response. I think it is important to distinguish between sticks and mallets. If you use the word "stick" in English, the performer will usually use a drumstick, or some other wooden implement. If you say "mallet" they will use a yarn-wound or felt mallet to achieve a smooth, unarticulated sound.

With mallets, you can specify hard, medium-hard, or soft, but I wouldn't go too beyond that (or perhaps even that far) unless you are quite certain of exactly what you want used. The specific choice of mallet is usually best left to the percussionist. Their choice may vary depending on the cymbal thickness and size, the unique mallets in their collection and how they interact with the cymbal, and the size of the ensemble, color desired, sound in the hall, etc.