5/4 subdivision "rules"

[MichelRE]

I have a work that has a LOT of 5/4 music in it (few extended passages, but LOTS of back and forth with other time signatures.)

I don't hear the music as divided 3+2 or 2+3, but rather as a smooth 5 (down, left, center, right, up.)

I find that, for a certain consistency, I have to notate it with lots of tied quarter notes as my engraving program insists on subdividing all 5/4 as 3+2.
I can change the subdivision, but then some measures will have some instruments with tied notes in different places from other instruments.

Just how "wrong" would it be for me to simply change all of those tied notes into half notes?

So viola might look like 3+2, while simultaneously violin 2 looks like 2+3?

As I said, I don't want the music to feel "subdivided" into a 3 and a 2 (whichever order those happen to be), but as a smooth 5, with no accented inner beats.

Would the gurus here see this as problematic?

[Anders Hedelin]

I don't hear the music as divided 3+2 or 2+3, but rather as a smooth 5 (down, left, center, right, up.)

I can change the subdivision, but then some measures will have some instruments with tied notes in different places from other instruments.

Just how "wrong" would it be for me to simply change all of those tied notes into half notes?

In 4/4 fx. you are nowadays advised to show the middle of the bar, using ties when necessary, at least in other than the simplest rhythms.
In 5/4 there is no such 'middle of the bar', so writing the rhythms as simply as possible, with a minmum of ties, would be a good idea.
If the 5/4 has no subdivisions, there's really no need to have ties between the units of the meter, the quarters. That wouldn't help the individual player, and in this case it wouldn't matter what possible ties there are or are not in other player's parts.

[MichelRE]

that's exactly what I was thinking as well, @Anders Hedelin.

The only places I see a potential issue is in notes that last a whole measure, where I DO have to choose 3+2 or 2+3 or even 4+1 (which I don't like the look of.)

I guess I could simply always write long notes as 3+2, then remove as many of the tied notes in the other passages that aren't whole-measure notes.

[Anders Hedelin]

I guess I could simply always write long notes as 3+2, then remove as many of the tied notes in the other passages that aren't whole-measure notes.

Sounds good. 3+2 seems to be more natural or basic than 2+3 (which is a kind of syncope).

[OCTO]

I think, the most problem arises when conductor want to address the last 2 or the last 3. Basically it becomes a "defecttive" binary-measure. Tchaikovsky made it a defective triple-measure in the Sixth.

But in your example, I would justify the rhythm from case to case.

[MichelRE]

I don't know if it makes a difference, but most of the 5/4 passages are relatively slow.
In rapid music I tend to stick to slightly more regular time signatures.

[John Ruggero]

Some might question whether it is really possible to feel something as a true 5 or 7 etc. and that we really only feel rhythm in groups of 2s and 3s. So even if we are trying to feel a rhythm in 5 we are actually feeling 3 + 2 with a very slight internal "emphasis" on the fourth beat. Therefore dotted half tied to a half note would be the most natural way to show a note that holds through a complete measure of such a 5/4 measure.

[MichelRE]

@John Ruggero but how do you feel about the other issue? writing the rest of the material as to avoid having too many tied notes?

the simplest example could give the following result:

the flutes playing a dotted half, followed by 4 eighth notes,
While the oboe plays 2 quarter notes, followed by a dotted half.

(the issue is those dotted half notes... in many measures I'm having to use ties to show 3 + 2 subdivisions. except it would be cleaner with 2 + 3 for some instruments.)

[John Ruggero]

@MichelRE In my opinion, if you don't want the oboe to be playing a real 2 + 3 I wouldn't write it like that, but as a 3 + 2, which is ambiguous and can mean a real 3 + 2 or no real accent on the fourth beat. For me, 2 + 3 is not ambiguous: it means an accent on the third beat.

[MichelRE]

@John Ruggero so you'd rather see lots of ties?

I'll try to screen capture an image from this particular work. it would probably be easier to get an idea that way.

EDIT:

ok, here's a quick example of what I mean.
I left the viola (lower staff) in the default 3+2 that Dorico automatically selects for 5/4.
I then copied that into the 2nd violin, but adjusted the look of the values to suit what I'd like.
Notice the subsequent measure has a 3+2 subdivision. So the subdivisions change from measure to measure quite often in the 5/4 passages.
(here the tempo is quite slow)

dotted_vs_undotted.png (2.24 KiB) Viewed 5165 times

In some passages in this large work, the sheer amount of ties becomes obtrusive at some point.
This is a stupidly simple example. I'll have to go ahunting to find a more convoluted example.

I found another example a bit further, still moderately simple, musically. But I'd really like to avoid the ties in the first measure of 5/4.
the image is of the strings only, but the woodwinds are playing dotted half half.

more_5-4.png (4.47 KiB) Viewed 5158 times