Rests in 5/4

[Felipe Copaja]

Hi, just wondering... I'm engraving a piano piece in 5/4 in which the r. h. has two whole bar rests and then four beats of rests and a final quarter note.
Although the whole note rest is technically ok four the 4 beats, it looks odd following the two previous empty bars. Would it be wrong if I use two half note rests instead?

Felipe

[John Ruggero]

Your instincts are right.

The rest usage in 5/4 depends whether the 5/4 measure is in 2 + 3 or 3 + 2 quarter notes. After deciding which it its, treat the measure like two measures made up of 2/4 + 3/4 or 3/4 plus 2/4 and use the appropriate rests for each component "measure". The exception would be that the whole measure rest would only be used for whole 5/4 measures, not for any of the component measures or combinations of component measures. A dotted half rest could show the 3/4 "measure" resting.

So if 2/4 + 3/4: half rest, quarter rest, quarter rest, quarter note. If it is 3/4 + 2/4 you could use a dotted half rest, quarter rest, quarter note.

You can see the 2/4 + 3/4 system in practice in the second movement (page 54) of:

https://ks15.imslp.org/files/imglnks/us ... _Score.pdf

3/4 + 2/4 "Mars":

https://vmirror.imslp.org/files/imglnks ... etsFS1.pdf

[NeeraWM]

Several modern (living) composer consider 1+4 and 4+1 as plausible subdivisions of 5/4.
When I was studying "advanced solfege" (!) in Switzerland, using the now almost defunct French method of the CNSMP, we were taught that 5/8, 7/8, 10/8, and 11/8 (and smaller /16, /32 ...) are irregular compound times derived from their bigger counterparts (5/8 from 6/8 missing 1, 7/8 from 9/8 missing 2). When it came to /4 and /2 irregular meters such as 5/4 and 7/4, anything was considered legal because of the generally lower speed of execution.
Of course, if I've talked to 20 people about this, I've got at least 20 shades of different opinions!

[John Ruggero]

I would agree that there is a place for any subdivision of 5/4 etc. when it comes to the notes, but Felipe was asking about rests. Would those composers use a whole measure rest plus a quarter note in 5/4?

[NeeraWM]

Yes, they would.
At least, they insisted on that when I tried to convince them to use a 3+2 or 2+3.

[John Ruggero]

Arnstein would have had a fit and with good reason. One symbol with two meanings rubbing shoulders in the parts with big money and reputations at stake. His Lesson 1: This is a whole measure rest; there is no whole note rest." He didn't even allow whole note rests in 4/2.

[NeeraWM]

Very interesting. So, would he write it as a half-rest + two quarters (or opposite)?

[John Ruggero]

Sorry, Neera, I didn't understand that. Are you talking about 4/2? In 4/2 he would write half rest-half rest for half a measure resting.

[NeeraWM]

No, I meant in 5/4, since we were discussing about 4+1.

[John Ruggero]

Sorry. I should have realized that, Neera. Yes, in 5/4 he would have used one of the two alternatives I mentioned above in my first response and as shown in the examples by Tschaikovsky and Holst.