Schumann's use of <> on a chord for piano?

[David Ward]

What does Schumann mean to indicate by the double hairpin on the long chord before the double bar? In 4/4 marked Langsam, mit innigem Ausdruck

(One sees this sort of thing in some piano reductions, as an indication of what the orchestra might be doing, but this is written for piano and voice from the beginning.)

[Alexander Ploetz]

I think that is the Ausdruck.

[tisimst]

You mean, your piano can't do that? That's too bad

[John Ruggero]

Pianists are magicians who can suggest impossible things with very limited means. An analogy might be to compare piano music to a master drawing, and orchestral music to an oil painting. And sometimes the drawing is better than the painting, as in a recent Gaspard orchestral episode on this forum.

[John Ruggero]

David, you send me off on interesting tangents. Here is a much more difficult place by Beethoven (Sonata op. 81a). I wanted to post the first edition, but the first edition omits the cresc., which is quite clear in the composer's MS. I guess the original editor couldn't believe his own eyes.

Beethoven cresc.jpg (366.57 KiB) Viewed 14612 times

A good pianist can create the effect of a cresc. in this held note by:

1. by adding a riten. for this one measure, thus prolonging the agony

2. playing the Bb octave louder than an expected resolution of a C octave appoggiatura and probably louder than the C octave itself

3. by playing the two previous C-Bb's in time and with quite soft resolutions to set up the surprise of 1. and 2.

These three suggestions are notated by Heinrich Schenker in his own personal copy of his own edition of the piano sonatas.

additionally:

4. playing the C octave with plenty of sustaining tone (thus the addition of the octaves at this point)

5. an arclike counterclockwise movement of the whole arm (the upper half of a circle) between the two octaves will create an audible unbroken unity between them and also help the audience feel the effect visually.

The absence of a slur between the two octaves is interesting. It says: this is an anti-appoggiatura-resolution and I, Beethoven, don't want a slur here to convey a normal interpretation with a soft resolution. However, the cresc. and the situation is enough to mean a legato between the two octaves.

[DatOrganistTho]

What does Schumann mean to indicate by the double hairpin on the long chord before the double bar? In 4/4 marked Langsam, mit innigem Ausdruck

(One sees this sort of thing in some piano reductions, as an indication of what the orchestra might be doing, but this is written for piano and voice from the beginning.)

Schumann heard his compositions as orchestrations. So yes, even though he heard it doing that, you are asked to do the impossible as a pianist (or so it seems).

[OCTO]

I think it is a theatric dynamics, the pianist should look like he/she is doing crescendo.

[MJCube]

Re Schumann: < > is sometimes called a “long accent”, i.e. a slower and gentler attack with the same force in context as a regular (sharper) accent. I think this particular case can actually be executed on piano because the chord is preceded by a 16th-note repetition. The expression of the marking extends out a bit farther than the marking itself.

Re Beethoven: While I agree fully with Schenker’s subtleties of execution, I don’t read this as a literal crescendo on a single note. It’s not that subtle: It’s simply that the ending is loud again, and the RH B-flat is much increased on the way to a true forte in the next bar. If one were to orchestrate this, the C whole note would surely be played by few instruments, which could cresc. somewhat, but then more would come in on the B-flat, already forte, and then tutti for the last two chords. This gentle-surprise effect — a jolly rather than cruel surprise, tricking the listener but not assaulting you by going forte all at once — can be gotten on piano with the markings Beethoven wrote.

[John Ruggero]

In the case of the Schumann, a slightly delayed playing of the chord would substitute for the easing into the chord and rise in dynamic level that a string player might use, and the natural decay of the piano sound would produce the dim.

MJCube, I guess we are very close in our understanding of the passage with a few differences. I do hear an intense cresc. on the C because the C-Bb (and Cb-Bb) has been an important motive and programatic element. But I agree that the cresc. leads on to the forte and unites the C-Bb with the D-Eb as a melody. However, I do not hear a real forte on the Bb, but only the final two chords as marked. For this reason, I would not orchestrate the Bb as you suggest.

Edit— and apparently the original editor did not consider this to be a normal cresc. and for that reason omitted it as a Beethoven eccentricity.

[David Ward]

Reviving an old thread; but this excerpt from the conversations with Rohan de Saram by Joachim Steinheuer has something relevant to add on the subject of the <> piano chords in Schumann et al.

BTW, this book is absolutely fascinating for anyone interested in the wide-ranging lifetime experiences of an outstanding, but personally unassuming musician born in 1939. I recommend it (it should be available from Amazon).

(I am currently working on a new piece for Rohan, due for performance in November.)