Clef design comparision

[tisimst]

..., while I understand that there can be many preferences with regard to a single symbol like the treble clef, as a font designer, I find it interesting that none of the opinions expressed in this thread seem to take the aesthetics of the larger symbol set or font into account when judging whether or not a clef (or any other symbol for that matter) is bad or good, better or worse...

I have to agree with Knut, here. Taken out of context, it is hard to judge the value of a clef's design without seeing what the rest of the symbol set looks like to judge the overall cohesiveness. For example, take a look at the November treble clef by Robert P. His entire font is quite "inky" and bold. I think it would be a HUGE mistake to utilize the treble clef with almost any other font but the one it belongs. I think we can all agree that this is equally true for any text font we've seen. We would never take our favorite letter "A" from Bodoni and use it with the rest of Baskerville, for example. It just doesn't make sense. Enough said. Thank you, Knut for bringing that up.

Now, I'd like to contribute a little to this comparison conversation. I now show you all the treble clefs that I've designed to work with LilyPond (most, but not all, are actually available at the moment). A good portion are of my own design, others have been re-mapped for compatibility. Two of these are highly experimental and one can only work with LilyPond (not the clef, but a few other critical symbols in the font). I know these are taken out of context as well (sorry), but for the sake of the conversation, I present you with the current set of "classical" style treble clefs:

clef-comparison-classical.png (59.38 KiB) Viewed 13710 times

And if that weren't enough, I think I'll also add a twist to this conversation by adding the LilyPond-compatible "jazz" designs to the mix (I know, this is going into dangerous territory. Maybe there should be a different thread about these?):

clef-comparison-jazz.png (16.06 KiB) Viewed 13710 times

Alright, I don't expect everyone to recognize them all as easily as the initial set that started this discussion. You'll recognize the first "classical" clef from LilyPond's default font (Emmentaler). You'll probably also recognize the design of the second "jazz" clef, re-created by a past LilyPond user to mimic the famous Sigler Jazz treble clef. Other notable fonts that are present are Profondo (the LilyPond-compatible "Bravura"), LilyBoulez (the LilyPond-compatible "Boulez"), and Scorlatti (my own rendition of the "SCORE" glyphs).

Does anyone recognize the third "jazz" clef? Bonus points if anyone knows where that one came from. DOUBLE bonus points for someone who knows where the fourth "jazz" clef came from .

Anyway, I'm interested to hear your thoughts. Critique away!

[John Ruggero]

Publisher X is indeed G. Schirmer. You know your fonts, Knut!

[OCTO]

Knut says the most important thing: font palette is the most difficult to create. Try to combine your most beloved symbols from different fonts and the score will end up in messy unbalance...

Well, tisimst, many nice clefs, indeed.
Now speaking just about my favorites: 4 and 13. No 11 is also quite fine.
I know some of these are "ancient" -looking, thus not to be criticized (such are 7 and 8).

[John Ruggero]

What software does one use to create a music font? I think I would like to experience the joys and frustrations of drawing a treble clef with a computer after having drawn so many by hand.

[Knut]

What software does one use to create a music font? I think I would like to experience the joys and frustrations of drawing a treble clef with a computer after having drawn so many by hand.

I use Font Lab, but it's expensive. FontForge is a good free alternative, I think.

[tisimst]

I only use FontForge, both manually and programmatically. I've found it very usable (and inexpensive ). Can't say how it compares to other tools.

I don't usually create the designs from scratch in FontForge, though I have done that. I usually start in Inkscape and import the outlines. Then I adjust the outlines' positions and any other font-related tasks.

[tisimst]

Well, tisimst, many nice clefs, indeed.
Now speaking just about my favorites: 4 and 13. No 11 is also quite fine.
I know some of these are "ancient" -looking, thus not to be criticized (such are 7 and 8).

Thank you for the encouragement! 4 is my own design, 13 is my SCORE replica, and 11 is Bravura. And yes, 7 and 8 are older designs. They were quite fun to work on and 8 is incredibly fun to use. Here's an example of 8 in context (with a stylesheet I created for it):

haydn-sonata.png (147.51 KiB) Viewed 13682 times

[John Ruggero]

Dear Knut and tisimst, Thank you for your help. I downloaded FontForge and will investigate Inkscape for outlining existing fonts.

That is wonderful work, tisimst, and the clef works perfectly. I wonder if a case could be made for using clefs and engraving styles of the period for older music, rather like period instruments.

I am going to make a comment that I made earlier regarding a beautiful Haydn example by Wess. It is something I feel very strongly about. I quite concerned about propagating older "imperfectly" edited 19th century editions, even the good ones for their time, like this one. Their time is past; we now need to be engraving editions based on original sources.

[tisimst]

Thanks! I've quite enjoyed using FontForge and Inkscape for font creation.

I'm not sure I entirely understand what you are trying to convey in your last paragraph. Do you mean that we should stop re-engraving the old scores and focus on modern composers? Or do you mean stop emulating the "engravings" and work straight from the composers' manuscripts? Or is it something else entirely? Just trying to understand, not criticizing.

[Knut]

John,

Looking forward to an abundance of treble clefs! BTW, could you post a scan of some of the handwritten work you've done?

Here's my font in the very tight context of the third movement of Ravel's string quartet. The work was kind of rushed, and somewhat difficult, so be gentle.

MenuetTest-Quartet.jpg (775.57 KiB) Viewed 13674 times