Notation program...

[Den]

What a nice compliment, Den. Thank you very much! When I told my wife what I had written about the developers, she agreed wholeheartedly and said that in her many years as a systems designer, she had seen this phenomenon repeatedly. Software engineers are lone, problem-solving wolves who want to produce their very own solution.

Jonh as I said before, that is one of the real points of our conversation here.

Den, I am in dark because I don't have Dorico, so I just read what you all write.
My perception would be definitely more profiled if I have used it. So I can't answer to the postulates you express about it.

I understand you OCTO. Why not go to download Trial version and try? That's not rocket science today If you could analyze my last gif example, you could have an insight into some details in working with Dorico. Advertising is one thing, but when you sit down and try it, it's something else entirely. It's all a matter of how you said yourself - personal perceptions, I absolutely agree, so I can't participate in your judgment about everything I don't even want to. Everyone has the right to have their own perception and every eye and mind is different, but when we realize that we are only talking about one topic and “there” or “here” the facts remain and it cannot be so easily agreed upon, circumvented or invented. Read my past messages again about all this, so maybe we can all learn a lesson. Honestly, I am very sorry for all of us, because we all try in our own way and help each other at some point. If I have offended anyone with this performance of mine, I am very sorry and I apologize! But OCTO, my apology and regret will not help anyone if we do not outweigh the factual truth. It doesn't matter what system you work in, or what you work with, that's exactly OCTO, it doesn't matter at all how fast something is, Dorico - it's not fast, but much more important is what I wrote about flexibility and "HOW". In this "how" lie the real arguments and once you have the opportunity to work with D., you will see that such a program in a 64-bit system and environment should work "like a bullet" and the logic is a completely different story, in fact it would it was supposed to be his primary thing like any music program.
I have an i7 and I have a feeling compared to all other serious professional programs, D. that it works as if it is a 16-bit application that is not even optimized. That's how I feel when working with Dorico.
I also worked a few years ago in a music studio and we had examples of sound testing sound, which program “sounds better”. Each program differs even in sound reproduction. Two top-of-the-line software, MAgix Sequoia and Avid ProTools' sounded impeccably clean. The others were all a class behind .... We have a lot of factors here ... So in this case of ours. Musescore is a solid and good program and you can do a lot of things in it, even it's free and then it's not a problem for anyone. I personally do not use it. If I personally had the capabilities and the right team, I would make the right software, in 2 years and it would be something that stands out from everything seen so far, but ... My advantage is that I really had an insight into many programs and worked with them personally . Here is one of my examples regarding "slurs in Dorico ...
Try it, it doesn't matter if in write or engrave mode, move or format the slurs where you want and not where the program determines .... From the very beginning in such a "Most Advanced Music Notation Program" it could have been completely different. set.
I don't see a reason why other members of our esteemed forum do not present and photograph the work in that program? At least that's not a problem today.
Of course, Dorico has all sorts of functions in him, that’s undeniable and a fact! But ... some of the details and the way these functions are set up and the “how” they work don’t fit the way - how it is presented to all of us and how we have a perception that it’s “it”. For something that would have complete control of each object and seriousness in engraving, it is poorly resolved and if it stays like this until version 5 or 6, 7 ... then it is a complete failure in notation and engraving. Lots of inflexibility and unspoken functions, no matter how much we currently have the perception that it is huge and that it has "everything a person could wish for". Even to my taste, the Bravura font is oversaturated and the "optics" are not well resolved, so as such it makes sense to impress only people who have never seen anything else in their lives and plan to do some children's books on music theory, explanations and similar things. , a lot of people like oversaturated and too thick fonts, so many will say it's my "personal understanding" or "misunderstanding" about how the program works. That has absolutely nothing to do with this topic and about Dorico. So ....: - (...

[Den]

Hi Den,

I fundamentally disagree. I use Dorico everyday. I don't need a "pause button" because when I press "stop" it stops in the frame/timecode/marker moment where I left it.

I'd like to hear how you would address my actual point, which is: How do you know that your way is "better"? Meaning, how do you REALLY know that it's better? I don't see Finale as "better" because Finale works an awful lot like a computer built in the 90s. If you are saying we should return to computers made in the 90s because they are more efficient, then I could understand your argument, but I cannot understand it now as it stands.

PlayStopMenu-Dorico.png (3.28 KiB) Viewed 9278 times

Is this Play command in "Most Advanced Music Notation Program" in 2020?
This play command ,that is not important for us and our talk..
I not say "My way is better" .
I didn't say that my way is better, you don't seem to understand the point of this topic at all ...
It doesn't even matter if it's the latest 2k program or the oldest program from the '90s' 80s, etc.

DatOrganistTho this is again for example: try delete one note in Dorico, and try delete in Finale either in Sibelius or any other notation program and look what is exactly happening with all space in measure. Try to move objects without leaving the main write page every time and then search and click the function to move objects ... yes?
I don't know, maybe that's how it is for everyone today, and it suits everyone that the machine does everything for them, and that it sets up the way it's programmed. To make it at least a little clearer to you what this is about, because I see that your thoughts are going to the other side that now have nothing to do with what we are talking about. Try working in Dorico on this direct logical approach.

Never mind what I presented here, this is only small example.
For e.g. If Dorico had a similar logic and had direct communication with the user, then I would say "Bravo!" But ...have NOT!

It doesn't matter what the program is called, it doesn't matter who does it, or in what year it was done, today we are deprived of real software engineering! That's sad. And that is a fact. :-( Games work much better and more thoroughly, much better flexible than the programs we work with every day.
p.s. I never say we should go back to the ’90s, so that’s crazy, hahahaha

[John Ruggero]

p.s. I never say we should go back to the ’90s

Well, I wouldn't mind going back to 2019...

[Den]

p.s. I never say we should go back to the ’90s

Well, I wouldn't mind going back to 2019...

ehhh...also.
Good year 2019!

[OCTO]

I would agree with DatOrganistTho, who says that there is no "better way", but everyone has to use whatever him/her fits the best.

For instance, Den, as you speak with slowness, or other things you don't like in Dorico, what then about LilyPond or SCORE? They are fast as your fingers are fast to type it correctly. So, there is no truth in that sense.

Furthermore, some people use notation software for composing, another only for copying/engraving, another for both, another for arrangements, etc. So everything depends. For instance, I don't know anyone who uses LilyPond for composing only -- it is clear "why", but who knows!

I think that the most important is to show that one is capable to do wonderful score, regardless how. Being "engraver" is based on the final output.

But, going back to the initial question: I would have a notation software based on a quantum AI that makes my handwritten scores look like Bärenreiter/Henle-kind. So far, I pay humans for that!

Why not go to download Trial version and try?

Actually, I never do that. I never install software just for testing, it is not my way. As my schedule is VERY dense (deadlines, with orchestras, choirs, chamber ensembles etc) I need to have as smooth as possible my machines, and also I don't have time to do it. I never do that "sport". If I decide I will make a score in Dorico, than I will complete that score in Dorico, and install it only then. Basically, I only have software that I use. Even iTunes, iPhoto, iWorks etc I have removed...

[Den]

But, going back to the initial question: I would have a notation software based on a quantum AI that makes my handwritten scores look like Bärenreiter/Henle-kind. So far, I pay humans for that!

Ohh yesss, gooood idea!

Actually, I never do that. I never install software just for testing, it is not my way. As my schedule is VERY dense (deadlines, with orchestras, choirs, chamber ensembles etc) I need to have as smooth as possible my machines, and also I don't have time to do it. I never do that "sport". If I decide I will make a score in Dorico, than I will complete that score in Dorico, and install it only then. Basically, I only have software that I use. Even iTunes, iPhoto, iWorks etc I have removed...

There is an answer in your statement.
Very simple and practical.
I'm glad you have a lot of work to do. That is the best job satisfaction.

[DatOrganistTho]

Actually, I never do that. I never install software just for testing, it is not my way. As my schedule is VERY dense (deadlines, with orchestras, choirs, chamber ensembles etc) I need to have as smooth as possible my machines, and also I don't have time to do it. I never do that "sport". If I decide I will make a score in Dorico, than I will complete that score in Dorico, and install it only then. Basically, I only have software that I use. Even iTunes, iPhoto, iWorks etc I have removed...

You have a dense schedule? In this day and age? Jealous.

[DatOrganistTho]

Hi Den,

I fundamentally disagree. I use Dorico everyday. I don't need a "pause button" because when I press "stop" it stops in the frame/timecode/marker moment where I left it.

I'd like to hear how you would address my actual point, which is: How do you know that your way is "better"? Meaning, how do you REALLY know that it's better? I don't see Finale as "better" because Finale works an awful lot like a computer built in the 90s. If you are saying we should return to computers made in the 90s because they are more efficient, then I could understand your argument, but I cannot understand it now as it stands.

PlayStopMenu-Dorico.png
Is this Play command in "Most Advanced Music Notation Program" in 2020?
This play command ,that is not important for us and our talk..
I not say "My way is better" .
I didn't say that my way is better, you don't seem to understand the point of this topic at all ...
It doesn't even matter if it's the latest 2k program or the oldest program from the '90s' 80s, etc.

DatOrganistTho this is again for example: try delete one note in Dorico, and try delete in Finale either in Sibelius or any other notation program and look what is exactly happening with all space in measure. Try to move objects without leaving the main write page every time and then search and click the function to move objects ... yes?
I don't know, maybe that's how it is for everyone today, and it suits everyone that the machine does everything for them, and that it sets up the way it's programmed. To make it at least a little clearer to you what this is about, because I see that your thoughts are going to the other side that now have nothing to do with what we are talking about. Try working in Dorico on this direct logical approach.

Notation.gif

Never mind what I presented here, this is only small example.
For e.g. If Dorico had a similar logic and had direct communication with the user, then I would say "Bravo!" But ...have NOT!

It doesn't matter what the program is called, it doesn't matter who does it, or in what year it was done, today we are deprived of real software engineering! That's sad. And that is a fact. :-( Games work much better and more thoroughly, much better flexible than the programs we work with every day.
p.s. I never say we should go back to the ’90s, so that’s crazy, hahahaha

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. What about the play header? What's wrong with it?

Also, deleting notes is quite the task. How do you decide when to remove it, but replace it with a rest, or remove it and pull the music in front of it back with it, or remove it and it quantize some other thing in the measure?

[OCTO]

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. What about the play header? What's wrong with it?

Also, deleting notes is quite the task. How do you decide when to remove it, but replace it with a rest, or remove it and pull the music in front of it back with it, or remove it and it quantize some other thing in the measure?

I think that we could understand that there is perhaps a language barrier and that Dan is not equal in explaining his thoughts.

DatOrganistTho, you asked indeed a valid dialectic question, and I believe that the answer is "do as fast and convenient you can to produce as correct and as beautiful* notation", so would I formulate it in the shortest possible meaning. In that case I don't see reason not using Dorico, Finale, Sibelius or whatever else, as far as I can produce "the most correct and most beautiful* score".

---
*) "beautiful" here is a personal taste, however can be objectively defined as "what majority think the beautiful is".

[odod]

I don't even know how to fix this in Dorico i have changed all the voices sequence, but the problem persist ...