Simple 4/4 grouping poll

[Fred G. Unn]

Hi all,

In the simple 4/4 bars below, which bars show your preferred method of note grouping? I've honestly had different clients/editors/supervisors request all 3 before. Assume this is for a solo instrument at a moderate tempo, although if either of those would have an effect on your choice, I'd be curious to hear why. If it makes a difference to you whether the eighth note is on the beat, or is an upbeat, there are two options. Does it make any difference if the eighth note is an eighth rest? I've heard justifications for all 3 options, but am curious what the current trends and preferences are.



A, B, or C?

[benwiggy]

As a professional sightreader ... A is clearest. 3 beats, then worry about subdividing.

I think I'd prefer A for Number 2 too. I'd definitely want 2A if the first note was a rest.

B might give clarity depending on the texture in the other parts. If something is happening on the half-bar in the music. But I wouldn't want 2B if there was a rest to start.

There's something about a bigger note starting on the off-beat (2B and 2C) that I find a bit confusing. It might be just me, though. I suspect they're everywhere in jazz!

A dotted minim is one of the exceptions (in my book) to the sacred half-bar. The other is something like this:

Screenshot.png (16.59 KiB) Viewed 6519 times

if the bar's not too complicated. It's a very common rhythm in Early music.

[Fred G. Unn]

The other is something like this:
... It's a very common rhythm in Early music.

Ooof, it might be common in early music, but I don't think I can get on board with that one. I would always do that one like this in 4/4 unless there was a specific reason not to (like really 2+3+3):


(I do like your flag though, which I know you designed.)

Anyone else care to weigh in on A, B, or C?

[David Ward]

FWIW I've often written C and no performer has ever made comment of which I've been aware (for or against). Depending on what's going on in the other parts I might also write either A or B.

I think all three are acceptable, depending on context.

I think Ben's cross-beat notation is quite common not only in early music, but also in 19th century Italian opera. I suspect it can also be found in Brahms (John?). My feeling is that for dance music and other contexts in which an audible sense of beat is very important it would be unwise, but if one wants a real sense of freedom from beat and rigid tempo, it may have advantages.

[John Ruggero]

Right you are David. Here is the first edition.

Brahms Academic Festival Overture 1.jpeg (45.69 KiB) Viewed 6456 times

Brahms Academic Festival Overture 2.jpeg (38.64 KiB) Viewed 6456 times

Brahms actually preferred to eliminate almost ALL the ties by placing dots after the bar line, as I suspected before I consulted the MS:

Brahms Academic Festival Overture 3.jpeg (76.85 KiB) Viewed 6456 times

Arnstein allowed B only for orchestral parts and would have rewritten the Brahms completely as he did for all composers except a few like Leonard Bernstein who didn't go along with it.

[Fred G. Unn]

FWIW I've often written C and no performer has ever made comment of which I've been aware (for or against). Depending on what's going on in the other parts I might also write either A or B.

I think all 3 are fine, I was just curious what the current preferences were. I've had several clients who insisted on C, and it is the house style for all Jazz at Lincoln Center publications including hundreds of Duke Ellington transcriptions.

Arnstein allowed B only

That's helpful, thanks! Did he allow the eighth, quarter, quarter, quarter, eighth syncopation in the first two bars of your top example? That's typically an "allowable" exception, although I find myself becoming less comfortable with it.

[John Ruggero]

He would have broken up the middle quarter note into a pair of tied eighth notes to show the third beat. He allowed only quarter-half-quarter. eighth-quarter-eighth, sixteenth-eighth-sixteenth etc. and broke everything else to clarify the beats and division of the beats.

All done to make the parts "foolproof", both for the players and the various copyists who he couldn't always supervise.

Personally, I the prefer Brahms approach.

[hautbois baryton]

A or B, never C.

[ttw]

Just to add an amateur opinion (though I've read lots of tangos on todotango.com to get an idea of how 4-beat 2/4 looks; the newer composers use 4/4.

I find all about the same when sight-reading. (Though this can become sigh-treading at times.) It's more important to be consistent throughout a piece.

All the todotango.com and free Latin fake books are very academic; they follow Stone or Read pretty closely.

[David Ward]

This is Mahler (retained in the published score). See violins 1 bars 3 and 4.