how to show dotted rest

[DePaule]

Should I show the dotted rest like the example above or without the dot like the example below?

2022-05-24 10_09_18-~_Downloads_131.ly [geändert] – Frescobaldi.png (4.52 KiB) Viewed 9238 times

Thank you!

[David Ward]

If that's in 4/4 definitely the upper.

[DePaule]

It ist 4/4

[DePaule]

If that's in 4/4 definitely the upper.

what is with this example. Should i use the upper or the lower rest?

2022-05-24 21_39_34-~_Downloads_131(3).ly [geändert] – Frescobaldi.png (5.48 KiB) Viewed 9203 times

[David Ward]

Again, definitely the upper.

[John Ruggero]

The rule is that the two halves of a 4/4 or 2/2 measure should be clearly shown. Exceptions are made for simple rhythms like
dotted-half/quarter or quarter/half-note (not rest)/quarter. Some make an exception for simple syncopations like eighth/quarter/quarter/quarter/eighth. Others do not and would tie the middle quarter note.

A counter example would be eighth/dotted-half/eighth. This kind of rhythm is difficult at first sight without a second voice to orient it. One would divide the dotted-half into two dotted-quarters to show the two halves of the measure.

[Anders Hedelin]

Interestingly enough notes and rests don't seem to demand the same level of rhythmic clarity.
In both examples below the notes on the first staff are unproblematic, but the rests on the second ones are not.

Notes vs. rests 1.JPG (18.33 KiB) Viewed 9089 times

Notes vs. rests 2.JPG (16.54 KiB) Viewed 9089 times

The rule of showing the middle of a 4/4 measure is broken in A1 as well as in A2, but acceptable with notes, and with notes only (A1) – not with a rest (A2).
The division of the quarter rest into two eighth rests is needed also in B (as in B3), despite its not being placed round the middle of the measure. It seems that rests need to demonstrate the beats of the meter more than notes.

Edit: The easier way to put this is that notes may be syncopated, rests not.

[John Ruggero]

The easier way to put this is that notes may be syncopated, rests not.

That sums it up nicely! Anyone have an explanation of why?

[Anders Hedelin]

Anyone have an explanation of why?

FWIW this is an attempt at an explanation:
It strikes me that notes and rests belong in different structural levels, at least partly so. Notes generally are part of the rhythmic details on the structural surface (1st staff below).

Rests have, however, a double function and can be part of the same surface, as well as of a more fundamental rhythmic structure, the 'metric grid', so to speak (3rd staff).
An image could be that the 'grid' is hidden, and just understood, when the measure is filled with notes, but showing when there are gaps between the notes = rests. You could perhaps compare with when a painter leaves parts of the canvas unpainted, to let its grid of fibres shine through.

The function of this 'metric grid' is to make clear where we are in the meter. This rules out syncopation, which is a kind of 'teasing the meter'. At least traditionally, the metric grid doesn't tease itself, i.e. rests are not syncopated (2nd staff).

Metric grid.JPG (24.04 KiB) Viewed 9039 times

I wonder if Schenker ever wrote about this?

[John Ruggero]

Brilliant reasoning. That sounds right to me, Anders. In other words, rests represent the silence, the substratum, upon which sounds are placed in time and this silence must be represented without the surface discontinuities like syncopation that work against this substratum. Did I get that right?

I am not aware of Schenker having addressed this issue of rhythmic notation. There is a section of rhythm and meter in Der Freie Satz that I mentioned once, but I don't see anything about this there.