Tutti indications?

[John Ruggero]

I am wondering how to distinguish the Tutti indications that I am using in opposition to Solo throughout a piece for soloist and orchestra, from the Tutti indications used to show that the whole string section is playing after a solo string quintet section. I am not convinced that context is enough to avoid confusion.

[OCTO]

Use "Soloist" / "Orchestra" instead of Solo / Tutti if those markings function more like formal cues than playing instructions.
Or use "with tutti", or "tutti orch." (or "Orch.") when the soloist reenters the orchestral texture.

[MichelRE]

Is this use of the string soloists regularly recurring in the work? or is it just once or twice?
Is it a work "for solo violin" with orchestra? or simply a work that contains regularly occurring solos from within the string section?

I have a few solos in my violin concerto, the main soloist gets their own staff, obviously,
and the solos that appear in the score from the string section are marked as "1 solo" or "1° solo".
Then the indication tutti for the return of the rest of the section.1
Musicians have no trouble telling when they have to play. After all, they only see their own part, so the whole section sees "1 solo" and know that the first desk gets that line, then they see "tutti" and know that it applies to their section.

I don't think you have to have any doubts about the string quintet soloists. Again, they only see their own part, the musicians in their section only see their part. Seeing "tutti" won't cause any confusion.

I had a work with prolonged solos for each first desk of the string section (not as a string quintet, but as 5 different solo passages.) And the orchestra had absolutely no difficulty interpreting the indications "solo" and "tutti".

[John Ruggero]

Thanks, OCTO and MichelRE. It's just the usual Tutti vs. Solo (in this case Piano solo) that one sees in concertos as orientation for the players . I want to stay with Italian.

The solo string quintet plays only once for a few measures. Then I need to cancel it in the regular string parts. There are no individual solo string parts. Since this is the only time that it occurs, is there another indication in common use that I could use to cancel the 1. Solo indications in this one spot and retain the usual Tutti and Piano solo indications elsewhere? Would "Tutti Vln. 1" or something like that be acceptable?

There is something about the situation that I think might be confusing. The section has the piano soloist and string quintet playing together followed by a closing for the soloist and full orchestra, which is where a regular Tutti might placed, although I have ruled that out.

[MichelRE]

as I said, you only need to include "tutti" on the staves where it returns to a group of players, after a solo passage. nothing more, nothing less. it's very standard.

For example:

section violin 1 plays........... "Solo" a single violin solo plays......................"Tutti" the whole section plays from this point on.

remember that you must include "solo" and "tutti" on every staff where there are instruments in that situation. so if it's basically one of each string instrument, you will have five staves with "solo" text, then when it's time to return to the whole string section, five staves with "tutti" written.

[John Ruggero]

Thanks, MIchelRE. I think I will just write "Tutti Vln. I", "Tutti Vln. II" etc. in this one spot, because it could be ambiguous.

[MichelRE]

I'm sorry, I'm not seeing any ambiguity.
Where are you seeing it?
Violin 1 is playing from a violin 1 part, so it's to be expected that when their part says "tutti" it means that all (tutti) the 1st violins are playing. it's not like they are going to wonder if the tutti affects them or violin 2.

[John Ruggero]

Because I would normally give all the instruments a Tutti indication at this point after the Solo section.

So to be consistent, I am faced with the prospect of:

1. a Tutti in each string part to indicate that the focus is on the whole orchestra, as opposed to sections focussed on the solo piano and...

2. another Tutti in each string part to cancel the 1. solo indications in the five string parts.

I wouldn't do two Tutti's, but throughout the piece, the players have been seeing Tutti to indicate that the whole orchestra is playing, and suddenly the string players confront this one lone Tutti that means something else.

I think that is potentially confusing, and will probable use Tutti Vln I, Tutti Vln. II, Tutti Vla, Tutti Cello, Tutti Bass. And also maintain Tutti indications in the other instruments at this same point to mean that the whole orchestra is now playing, unless someone has a better idea.

Or maybe I should leave out the classic Tutti and Solo indications throughout the piece? I am wondering if they are still being used.

[MichelRE]

that's an erroneous use of "tutti" if you are applying it to ALL the instruments in the orchestra.
it's not intended to indicate the prominence of a section. it is a technical marking that simply says "all the musicians in this section are playing."
You won't use "tutti" on woodwinds. It doesn't mean anything to them.
The same goes for brass, it is totally meaningless to them.

Use a single "tutti" for each string part where there was a solo previously. Period. There is no need for extra tuttis, and it will not indicate that the string part has gained prominence. A single marking of tutti at the return of the whole section is all that's necessary. And as I said, there isn't even the need to specify "violin 1 tutti". Violin one are all playing from the same part. So a tutti would mean "yo, dudes and dudettes, we're all playing instead of that blowhard first desk!"

Unless you're facing a complicated return where for example only the inside players are to return at the tutti, this is an exception where additional text would be required. So "Tutti inside players" or "Tutti la meta" (which technically means half, rather than specifying inside or outside players.)

You don't even have to tell the sectional soloist that they must now play with their underpayed comrades. Tutti means ALL, including the overpayed concertmaster.

In orchestral music (as opposed to band music):
Tutti and Solo are used and their meaning is simple. You are making it far more complicated than it should be.
Solo = one instrument plays, tutti means that the entire section plays. No more, no less. It doesn't say anything about whether the music should stand out or not.

If you MUST include an indication for any section to stand out, then either orchestrate it to stand out on its own, or include some form of text indication like "bring out the orchestral accompaniment" or something. I think the text is overkill, and is not necessary in the orchestra parts. Only the conductor would need it, and they will deduce it from context. So even the conductor doesn't need the text.

[David Ward]

John, am I right in thinking that you are referring to the indication Tutti that one sees in, say, the Beethoven violin concerto at the top of the full score when there is a passage for the orchestra alone rather than for the soloist with the orchestra? If so, does it still perform a necessary function in these days with conductors et al other than fulfilling a convention that may have been becoming passé in Beethoven's time? (It doesn't appear to be used in the Brahms concertos.)