Ottava usage

[Hector Pascal]

Hi again all,
Which is the best version? (RH and LH are both up the octave for the first beamful of notes).
I am thinking example 2 is correct as per Gould on page 324...

example 1:

ex1.jpg (35.43 KiB) Viewed 27317 times

or example 2:

ex2.jpg (33.92 KiB) Viewed 27317 times

Thank you very much for any suggestions,
cheerio,
HP.

[John Ruggero]

Despite what Gould says, example 1 is what pianists are accustomed to in a case like this which is not ambiguous. Check out http://vmirror.imslp.org/files/imglnks/ ... Demets.pdf toward the end and http://vmirror.imslp.org/files/imglnks/ ... _deste.pdf

(OT Maybe even a sloping octave line in your case.)

Here is an example similar to yours from Ravel Ondine:

Ravel Ondine.png (111.39 KiB) Viewed 27283 times

But there is nothing wrong with the second way. It can be used in all cases and leaves no room for doubt

[MichelRE]

I find that the diagonal 8va in the Ravel example definitely removes any doubt as to the desired effect.
To my eye, the OP's 1st example the 8va line is too far from the notes it affects in the lower staff.

[John Ruggero]

I agree.The end points of an octave line should never be so far from the notes they apply to, similarly to pedal indications.

Here are two contrasting examples from the sources I cited above. In the Ravel the octave sign applies to both hands. This is only completely clear at the point were the octave sign stops (see the arrow), because the initial 8 is not clearly positioned over the initial left hand chord (see the oval)

Ravel Jeux.png (868.44 KiB) Viewed 27269 times

In the Liszt the position of the 8 starting with the right hand shows that the octave sign apples to the right hand hand only:

Liszt Jeux.png (536.86 KiB) Viewed 27269 times

Gould's point is well taken in that it should be immediately clear as to what register to play. One shouldn't have to judge each case by context.

However, I think that the single octave sign is OK for short groups as in the OP where it is completely clear what is wanted.

[John Ruggero]

I can't help bringing up a case of an octave line in Beethoven's op. 106 that has provoked controversy. Does the octave sign apply to the left hand? There is no reason that it should. Yet some editors have thought that the big (and very difficult) jump in the left hand suggests that it should be played an octave higher than written:

Beethoven op 106.2.png (225.99 KiB) Viewed 27265 times

But it shouldn't. Beethoven suddenly brings in the left hand to lead into the correct register for the entrance of the right hand in the next measure.

[MichelRE]

I have to say that the Beethoven example could easily have had the left hand written at pitch IF it were meant to be played that octave up. (I mean, the previous iteration of that rising scale IS written at pitch)

So if he really meant the left hand to be one octave up, there was no actual need for an 8va sign, was there.

[Hector Pascal]

Thanks, John and Michel. The examples are great and much appreciated!
Cheerio, Hector.

[John Ruggero]

I have to say that the Beethoven example could easily have had the left hand written at pitch IF it were meant to be played that octave up. (I mean, the previous iteration of that rising scale IS written at pitch)

So if he really meant the left hand to be one octave up, there was no actual need for an 8va sign, was there.

Exactly. Yet the famous Beethoven exponent Artur Schnabel, who was a literalist almost to a fault when it came to many aspects of Beethoven's piano sonatas, was so sure that it should be played up an octave that he wrote the passage up an octave in his well-known edition just as you describe, without even a footnote of warning:

Schnabel op 106.2.png (521.15 KiB) Viewed 27236 times

Here is the passage in the first English edition. It is also like this in the first German edition:

op 106.2 1st Eng.png (364.88 KiB) Viewed 27236 times

It is clear that Schnabel understood the final left hand scale as only needed reinforcement for the right hand in a weak high register, not that the left hand also prepares for the register of the following F 9.