[puzzle] Two voices in one staff

[tisimst]

Now that I actually understand what is wanted, here is my corrected version.

FWIW, here's the default LilyPond output:

[puzzle] Two voices in one staff - LilyPond default.png (49.41 KiB) Viewed 18871 times

I think it does a good job--plenty legible (at least to me)--but I think I have to give my vote to John this time for creating the absolute minimum collisions.

Nicely done, John!

[Knut]

I don't see how the last two examples are better than breaking the tie for the notehead to avoid as much as the music as possible.
To my eyes, a tie should never obscure the main parts of any accidental. Only the stems is acceptable to cut through, even in extreme cases. But it's even more problematic to me when the tie touches a notehead, as it appears to do in both these examples.

I don't personally think there is any ambiguity with OCTO's solution in this case.. The last note in voice 1 could perhaps be pushed a little more to the right, though, making it even clearer which note the tie applies to.

[David Ward]

+1 for OCTO's, which I find easiest to read.

[John Ruggero]

Thanks so much, tisimst. The Finale default with my adjusted settings actually produces a result similar to LilyPond but the tie is a little lower and runs more into the sharp, but less into the note head.

I must respectfully disagree with my colleagues who feel that the ends of the tie may lead toward the stems rather than the note heads and the tie may cover the other notes. I don't think that I have ever seen this in print and feel that it is non-standard; but, of course, I may be mistaken. I will do some looking through the literature and see if I can find an example of this situation and its solution.

[erelievonen]

Here is another kind of solution.

tie_puzzle_1.png (31.83 KiB) Viewed 18851 times

[John Ruggero]

Here is a somewhat similar situation from Liszt's piano solo arrangement of Beethoven's Symphony no. 3. It is from the Breitkopf Complete Works of Liszt. I will keep looking for something that includes accidentals. But in this case, I find the tie crossing in among the ledger lines much more disturbing than cutting through a sharp, yet not disturbing enough to be of great concern since it is clear that the melody is moving in octaves.

Example .jpg (29.4 KiB) Viewed 18846 times

[John Ruggero]

erelievonen's solution satisfies the tie end-to-note head "requirement", yet still seems to slur-like and is not visually pleasing, at least to me, and I think that some engraver's might not use it for that reason.

[Knut]

I agree that ties intersecting with ledger lines can indeed be disturbing (although I wouldn't personally put this above the effect of ties cutting through the main parts of accidentals), which is why Elaine Gould recommends to break a tie that would otherwise intersect with them.

[John Ruggero]

Knut, I believe that your solution with the broken ties is excellent, and some might feel it superior to one that does not break the tie. However, there is also visual dissonance in breaking ties and slurs, and in this case I don't feel that it is necessary in spite of my great distaste for lines intersecting with accidentals. But it is a close call.

For me, a tie among ledger lines obscures the pitch of the note, while one through an accidental would rarely do that.

[OCTO]

erelievonen's solution satisfies the tie end-to-note head "requirement", yet still seems to slur-like and is not visually pleasing, at least to me, and I think that some engraver's might not use it for that reason.

I agree. Somehow flattened tie could result in a more "tie" looking curve.